Mixing session done - band refuses to pay

[James Murphy]

thfyn, i would say that the potential insolvency of any band's coffers does not in any way absolve them of the responsibility to pay their bills. in this particular case i'd say that if this band is indeed unable to afford Tore's fee, that this should have compelled them in even stronger fashion to pay due diligence to their finances and to qualify 100%, prior to authorizing work to begin, that they could indeed afford the potential fee. Hell, i found the test i quoted in my previous post about the general rate guidelines in less than one minute... and i had nothing at stake. yes, Tore should have replied with a rough quote, but you can't indict him on the trust he put in the band's next communication, which asked him to start work... he does after all have the rough daily fee schedule clearly posted under the appropriately titled link, Prices, on the header of his studio's site.

in simplest terms: being a poor-assed fucker doesn't mean you get shit cheaper than anyone else just 'cuz you didn't know what the price was at first... you should ask until you got an answer, or just look it up.

 

[thefyn]

thfyn, i would say that the potential insolvency of any band's coffers does not in any way absolve them of the responsibility to pay their bills. in this particular case i'd say that if this band is indeed unable to afford Tore's fee, that this should have compelled them in even stronger fashion to pay due diligence to their finances and to qualify 100%, prior to authorizing work to begin, that they could indeed afford the potential fee. Hell, i found the above quote about the general rate guidelines in less than one minute... and i had nothing at stake. yes, Tore should have replied with a rough quote, but you can't indict him on the trust he put in the band's next communication, which asked him to start work... he does after all have the rough daily fee schedule clearly posted under the appropriately titled link off the main page of his studio's site.

Yep, but it works both ways.

The producer obviously didn't go to their myspace to see they are pretty much nobodies, why can we also assume the band went to look at the prices on the studios website?

The band may have thought it would not take 2 days to mix/master one song...Sounds like a lot of assumptions went into this one and it resulted in the band having a heart attack when they saw the (fair) bill.

The thing is, them asking about price from the start, the producer not telling them is a VERY good assumption that they had no idea of the prices before hand. Which is why they asked ya know? To find out.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

I don't think it is ridiculous speculation that a band like this could not afford a thousand dollars a song to mix/master. Sounds like you are overstating stuff. I said I can see how both parties have a point.

If the band was speaking on this forum, I would be telling them they were punching over their weight.

I mean it turns out they couldn't afford it, so how is it ridiculous?

Makes no sense. If I had 100 000 friends means that I can afford a producer like Andy wallace or Bob rock? Of course not, means nothing. Myspace friends dont puts money in your pocket. In my point of view there are no relation between the 2 facts.

If I read well, the band doesnt want to pay, it´s different from not having money.

 

[James Murphy]

The producer obviously didn't go to their myspace to see they are pretty much nobodies, why can we also assume the band went to look at the prices on the studios website?

no no no no no... the rest of your post was reasonable, but this bit is absolutely ludicrous.

no, you can't go around looking at your client's myspace pages to judge how much they can pay you, that's the biggest pile of nonsense i've ever heard.

i can't even believe i even need to say this... or that i'm to actually about type the next few lines.... because this shit should just be self-evident as a matter of normal business.

ok.. first of all, they didn't apply for credit at the Bank Of Tore.

second... a band's popularity has ZERO to do with their responsibility to pay their debts.... and it clearly doesn't have much to do with their ability to accrue them. i uh, um, i... er... SHIT.. i'm so mind-bent that anyone could think like this that i feel like i'm stuttering even though i'm typing, lol...

no, ALL... and il mean ALL new bands have few friends (or few non-Bot-added friends).... doesn't mean that they might not want, nor that they cannot afford, a quality recording/mix. quite the opposite in fact... i have worked with many new, unknown bands, that are quite well funded.

and i've also worked with a band that played the sympathy card about how "broke" the band was.... and how they just need a break, etc etc... i let it work on me and i gave them a major discount. well i found out a bit later that the main guy of the band was very well off... owning multiple homes and high-end vehicles. i quit the job, unfinished.

no, you cannot go by how many "friends on myspace" a band has as a means to adjust your rates. and that's why NO ONE does it. ever. anyone who's even considering this method should just top themselves now, and be done with it.. because your business is doomed, and you suck at life.

 

[Ermz]

Seems like the result of a simple communication breakdown. It's unfortunate because situations like this can always be avoided. It's partially why I, and many others it seems, charge a flat fee for mixing. Additional rates are tacked on for continued changes, but the band can generally be assured of what the base price is going to be.

If you're keen to continue charging daily rates for a process that the band will not be personally a part of and there to keep time, it's advisable to get on top of giving them very accurate quotes ahead of time to avoid this happening again.

 

[Ermz]

and i've also worked with a band that played the sympathy card about how "broke" the band was.... and how they just need a break, etc etc... i let it work on me and i gave them a major discount. well i found out a bit later that the main guy of the band was very well off... owning multiple homes and high-end vehicles. i quit the job, unfinished.

ahahah, I freakin love it

 

[TravisW]

I guess what I'd probably do is offer some sort of discount just so you can get some dough out of them. If they were planning on 300, and your bill came to 600, you could offer a halfway point at 450 and see if they bite. It sucks, but it beats having the thing riding on your accounts receivable forever too.

 

[Ataraxia2320]

That sucks, but to be honest i can see the bands point of view. The way there was no estimate from yourself kind of shows that they didn't have a clue about pricing. Saying that though if they didn't know how much it was going to cost they shouldn't have told you to commence work in the first place.

Its a tough situation to be in, does anyone know the legal standpoint on this one? And if youl be likely to get paid? If theres any good to come out of this one anyway itl show both you and everyone who reads it that you really have to cover your own ass.

 

[AEL89]

fuck - that song owns

 

[Djabthrash]

Interesting & educational thread.

Sorry for you Tore, i hope you will get the issue solved, and i guess next time you won't forget to provide an estimate price beforehand to cover your ass.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

no, you can't go around looking at your client's myspace pages to judge how much they can pay you, that's the biggest pile of nonsense i've ever heard.

I think this mentality is due to the fact that most of the people here judge this scenario from their own perspective. I imagine it's quite a common practice for many of the semi-pros and (I absolutely don't mean this in an offensive way because I'm one myself) bedroom warriors. I naturally never charge by the amount of a band's MySpace friends or anything like that, but I often get a bad hunch from a band beforehand and think to myself that "these guys will be trouble, I'm not sure if I want to take this gig" from doing a bit of internet detective work.

What people don't understand, however, is that this is far from reality for people like Tore, who have been running their businesses for long enough and done enough work to assume that when a band wants you to work for them, they realize it's going to cost them and they're ready to pay for it. I get all kinds of contacts varying from "Hey, we're looking for someone to mix our demo, can you do it for a case of beer? Or a sixpack? Or for free? Can we take turns doing your wife while you're working on the demo? Thanks, we're looking forward to hear the final mix!" to "Hey, we heard your work, saw your prices on the website and want you to do it." That's just something us bedroom warriors have to deal with, so it might be hard to imagine there's a world where one doesn't have to constantly worry about getting paid in the end.

 

[thefyn]

second... a band's popularity has ZERO to do with their responsibility to pay their debts.... and it clearly doesn't have much to do with their ability to accrue them. i uh, um, i... er... SHIT.. i'm so mind-bent that anyone could think like this that i feel like i'm stuttering even though i'm typing, lol...

Then I think it is irresponsible on the part of the producer NOT to double check these types of things (he didn't even single check with an average daily quote). Because that would have scared them off.

So you find it beyond the realms of sanity, that I think a bands myspace who has less than 2000 friends in 3 years, would throw up a flag for ME that they probably can't afford professional studio work, after they asked the price?

Just like it should have been part of the legwork for the band to see what the producer was all about from his website. A small bit of research gives you an idea what the band is all about (and the producer).

Lets face it, if a band emails an average producer, you know the next step is the producer googling the band/myspace to see/hear what they are dealing with. I mean it would be bad business not to research a band before pouring 2 days of work without a quote.

The band IMO is simply RIGHT not to want to pay. Because they asked, he didn't tell.

How can you assume that a band even knows it takes 2 days to mix/master one song?

 

[updog]

You'd definitely expect a band to go check out your site, and read it, if they're interested in working with you. But personally, I'd probably have double-checked just in case. In a simple way like just copy-pasting some mumbo-jumbo from your site, that clearly shows the example pricing. Better yet if it can be made to look like something that is automatically included in every message you send so they don't think you're all about the money.

 

[Ermz]

The perspective has to be universal. Whether pro, semi pro, amateur etc. there are usually correct ways to handle business affairs and incorrect ones. It makes sense to do a brief check into a band prior to accepting work, on the basis of getting a feel for their music and acknowledging whether or not you feel you can align with it and produce a quality product. I'm familiar with a great many around these parts that just take work as it comes and literally ask the band once they walk in 'what kind of music do you play?', but that's one of the quickest ways towards mediocrity.

Being a weird bastardization of bedroom warrior/semi-pro and full pro, I always make sure to check where a band are coming from musically. Usually the amount of care taken with the online 'face' of the band can also reflect their diligence and care about other areas of their existence - namely the sound of their record.

Of course one can't base their decisions to work with clients solely on how popular they are on tardspace, but there has to at least be *some* inquisition for what the band are doing, and where they are coming from. Most of the time I can tell from the very first two bits of correspondence I get from a band whether I'm the right person for their budget or goals. About 70% are turned away simply as a matter of economics. In fact most just don't bother replying back if the price turns out not to meet with their ambitions, and I think of that as a helpful self-weeding process, because ultimately I don't want to work with people like that. Ultimately, if that had happened in this situation (on the back of a clear quote), it would've saved everyone a ton of grief.

I have to comment though, that I always find it hilarious how bands make such a big deal about what are relatively minor sums of money, when broken up amongst 4 or 5 people. The idea that 'oh we can pay 300 EUR, but no way we can stretch to 600 man, that's just not possible'. Oh really man, that extra 60 bucks each is really going to put you out, I feel so bad. How ever are you going to afford that next gen iPhone you trendy ****... ugh sorry, lost composure. I hate people - makes working hard sometimes.

 

[::XeS::]

The producer obviously didn't go to their myspace to see they are pretty much nobodies, why can we also assume the band went to look at the prices on the studios website?

This has no sense at all.
If I want a job done by someone I go on the studio website to find rates and works he did or I search info about him in another way...I think it's pretty normal.
Example: I like a pair of Nike. I know they could cost very much but I go to the shop and I say to the salesman I want that Nikes, without checking the price exposed.
When he says me the price I don't wanna pay them anymore because they cost too much and the salesman didn't tell me it before.

Following your argument, when I ask to the salesman to buy the shoes, he should say "wait 5 minutes. I've to do some search about you." And he calls the fisco, my bank, my parents, at my work, etc...

It's ridicolous.
Of course in this case there was a comunication problem, but if those guys was not able to find the rates in a website it was their fault.....what's the reason to do a website if the clients don't use it?

 

[::XeS::]

How can you assume that a band even knows it takes 2 days to mix/master one song?

If I send to you 30 tracks to mix, do you know NOW how many hours do you need to edit/mix/master them?
Anyway the "guide" rate is 250€/day so, the work should cost = or > 250€.
The problem is that at the end of the story they said "there is no proof for us about the amount of time you claim you have worked." so they can use this excuse everytime because from Greece they can never know if he worked the hours he said.
Said that....Tore did the work and they have to pay him also if they don't like the final product.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

The perspective has to be universal. Whether pro, semi pro, amateur etc. there are usually correct ways to handle business affairs and incorrect ones. It makes sense to do a brief check into a band prior to accepting work, on the basis of getting a feel for their music and acknowledging whether or not you feel you can align with it and produce a quality product. I'm familiar with a great many around these parts that just take work as it comes and literally ask the band once they walk in 'what kind of music do you play?', but that's one of the quickest ways towards mediocrity.

I completely agree here, hope you didn't misunderstand my post. I was just rationalizing how things often seem to be in these cases today.

About 70% are turned away simply as a matter of economics. In fact most just don't bother replying back if the price turns out not to meet with their ambitions, and I think of that as a helpful self-weeding process, because ultimately I don't want to work with people like that.

This is also true, but it's also something I find really irritating. The band can easily check my rough prices from the site, yet they still contact me, I schedule the mixing job, go through some of the details with them, exchange a few e-mails and spend time in the process, only to never hear from the band again after I quote them the final price.

 

[ahjteam]

I also find some contradictions in the bands emails...

2 nov: "now we've got a new track recorded for a split, that needs to be mixed and mastered"

27 dec: "Our general idea about the price was the conclusion of what we red in your website about 2 months ago wich was 300 eurws for a full-length mastering."

Since they clearly had visited his website, they could've read the whole pricing page.



edit: I checked the referencelist and I honestly haven't heard of any of the bands listed there. I guess they are too UG for me.

 

[Ermz]

"there is no proof for us about the amount of time you claim you have worked." so they can use this excuse everytime because from Greece they can never know if he worked the hours he said.

That's what I alluded to earlier, and it's where a flat fee really helps the clients come to terms with the situation. I usually take a listen to the tracks, then make an estimate on how long it will take and just quote a flat fee on that. Any excessive changes incur additional fees over time, but otherwise it's very predictable and any issues with pricing at that point are entirely on the band's end.

@Jarkko: I found it really irritating too for years. I've just come to terms with it as being more beneficial than anything. Any bands that pulls that sort of shit, I blacklist them immediately. It's natures way of letting you know who the juveniles are. As a result I've been blessed to work with some really great personalities across almost all of my projects. All these 'nightmare' stories people recount simply haven't existed for me to date because of letting these guys weed each other out.

 

[Erik Monsonis]

Well, I'm not on the bands side... If they wanted somebody like Tore to mix a song, they should know that he's not an amateur like most of us, and his prices would be way higher than the amateur mixers. However, if Tore had covered his own back (money in advance, at least half...) nothing would have happened.

I really hope the band pays you, man, but it's not fair from you to rant about the band so much, when you have great part of the responsibility.