Mixing session done - band refuses to pay

If I where to email Fredrik Nordström and ask him to mix a song for my band, give him the green light, and then get suprised when a huge bill shows up in the mail would anyone here think that it was Nordströms fault for not checking my myspace page first to see how many friends I have?
 
This should be enough to tell the band how much it will at least cost:

we've got a new track recorded for a split, that needs to be mixed and mastered. We were wondering if you would be interested to do that for us.

And Necromorbus-page says quite clearly:

Mixing: As a very approximate "guideline", consider 250-350 EUR / working day.

Mastering: (working hours included): 300 EUR

So, even if he'd done the mixing in one day and then mastered it, it would've been about 600 and that's not even the case here.

It should be clear that Necromorbus is not a small bedroom, where someone's making mixes at night after their regular job and by that, it should also be clear that it's not the cheapest place you can find, but you have to pay for pro if you hire one.

Btw - I don't have a MySpace, but I've still used Tore for mastering. :danceboy:
 
If I where to email Fredrik Nordström and ask him to mix a song for my band, give him the green light, and then get suprised when a huge bill shows up in the mail would anyone here think that it was Nordströms fault for not checking my myspace page first to see how many friends I have?

Freddy would blindly mix a track and ignore people who asked them multiple times for a ball park price?

Myspace popularity means nothing then? Good. Gives me hope.

One of my songs has 20 plays...haha.

http://www.myspace.com/automatonrocks
 
Well, I'm not on the bands side... If they wanted somebody like Tore to mix a song, they should know that he's not an amateur like most of us, and his prices would be way higher than the amateur mixers. However, if Tore had covered his own back (money in advance, at least half...) nothing would have happened.

I really hope the band pays you, man, but it's not fair from you to rant about the band so much, when you have great part of the responsibility.

I am 50 50. I think both are at fault personally.

Since talking of percentages, I think he should cut the band some slack so he can at least get paid something.

If nothing else he will get some props because I had never heard of him, and now I know he is a fkn great producer listening to his band list.
 
I really hope the band pays you, man, but it's not fair from you to rant about the band so much, when you have great part of the responsibility.

This is bollocks man. If I were to contract a plumber to spend a week tearing out all my pipework and completly re-work both my water and heating systems without checking his rates properly first it does NOT suddenly mean he has "a great part of the responsibility" for my being unable to pay. I certainly don't expect him to research my personal background beforehand.

This is the problem with AE work, it's a fast train to the bottom of the barrel because the very existence of "bedroom warriors" seems to call into question the right of professionals to charge what they think is a fair rate for the value of their work. You would NEVER try this on with a plumber, or electrician, or ANY tradesman (unless you're utterly clueless and desperate to end up in court). Yet people do this to AE's all the time.
 
edit: I checked the referencelist and I honestly haven't heard of any of the bands listed there. I guess they are too UG for me.

yeah, most (all?) of those bands are black metal bands...Watain is probably the "biggest" in terms of metal popularity, I'd say. then Funeral Mist, then the rest at a big decline.
 
This is bollocks man. If I were to contract a plumber to spend a week tearing out all my pipework and completly re-work both my water and heating systems without checking his rates properly first it does NOT suddenly mean he has "a great part of the responsibility" for my being unable to pay. I certainly don't expect him to research my personal background beforehand.

This is the problem with AE work, it's a fast train to the bottom of the barrel because the very existence of "bedroom warriors" seems to call into question the right of professionals to charge what they think is a fair rate for the value of their work. You would NEVER try this on with a plumber, or electrician, or ANY tradesman (unless you're utterly clueless and desperate to end up in court). Yet people do this to AE's all the time.

Who said anything about him charging too much? His prices are fair. To run a studio, top mics, amps, rental etc etc costs a fortune so $500 a day is fine.

It is why you get a written estimate before hand.
 
This is bollocks man. If I were to contract a plumber to spend a week tearing out all my pipework and completly re-work both my water and heating systems without checking his rates properly first it does NOT suddenly mean he has "a great part of the responsibility" for my being unable to pay. I certainly don't expect him to research my personal background beforehand.

This is the problem with AE work, it's a fast train to the bottom of the barrel because the very existence of "bedroom warriors" seems to call into question the right of professionals to charge what they think is a fair rate for the value of their work. You would NEVER try this on with a plumber, or electrician, or ANY tradesman (unless you're utterly clueless and desperate to end up in court). Yet people do this to AE's all the time.


Being a contractor though, your point is irrelevant. A plumber/contractor would never commence working on your house until a estimate was a agreed upon, signed into contract and payed usually 50% upfront before the work is to occur.

I do agree that an AE should look into a band beforehand before working with them. NOT their "myspace friends" and "personal" backround. But, to understand the conceptual idea of the band before you work with them. You don't want to mix a band that's "troo blackmetal" and wants to sound like Burzum and do a mix that sounds like the Black Album.
 
Freddy would blindly mix a track and ignore people who asked them multiple times for a ball park price?

Myspace popularity means nothing then? Good. Gives me hope.

I don't consider once multiple, but what do I know.

Point is, they asked for a an estimate without giving any real details that would help him give an estimate, and when he got the details he probably just forgot to give it and since they didn't ask him again, then it was just a simple mistake. Now if money was such a big deal to this band and they didn't have the cash to enlist a "pro" then they shouldn't have been so damn retarded as to tell him to go ahead with the mixing without even checking his damn website which very cleary states:

As a very approximate "guideline", consider 250-350 EUR / working day,
+
Please note that we usually don't offer a lower price for recordings with fewer songs. The time needed for the project is usually about the same whether it involves 3 songs or 13. Therefore we have decided to not have our prices on a song-by-song basis.


Damn it, you can't just go into a McDonalds and not look at the menu, order a Big Mac Meal and then when you're about to pay bail becuse the cashier didn't tell you how much it would cost.

And myspace popularity means absolutely dick to if you should have pay you fucking bills or not, jesus.
 
I don't consider once multiple, but what do I know.

Point is, they asked for a an estimate without giving any real details that would help him give an estimate, and when he got the details he probably just forgot to give it and since they didn't ask him again, then it was just a simple mistake. Now if money was such a big deal to this band and they didn't have the cash to enlist a "pro" then they shouldn't have been so damn retarded as to tell him to go ahead with the mixing without even checking his damn website which very cleary states:

As a very approximate "guideline", consider 250-350 EUR / working day,
+
Please note that we usually don't offer a lower price for recordings with fewer songs. The time needed for the project is usually about the same whether it involves 3 songs or 13. Therefore we have decided to not have our prices on a song-by-song basis.


Damn it, you can't just go into a McDonalds and not look at the menu, order a Big Mac Meal and then when you're about to pay bail becuse the cashier didn't tell you how much it would cost.

And myspace popularity means absolutely dick to if you should have pay you fucking bills or not, jesus.

He's not getting paid. So you are right? Because. oh look, the unpopular black metal band can't afford a pro producer. Who woulda thunk it?
 
Yes, Unavoidable is right.

Tore did effectively give them an estimate by providing a price on his website. Period. End of story. Sure, if you want some kind of scale tipping to the band's side, he probably should have told them in the e-mail, but he does have it on his site. Maybe it's just me, but I would not be fucking stupid enough to not realize he didn't tell me a price and as a result I would have looked around to find out if he has prices listed anywhere - BEFORE I told him to go ahead and do it. By them saying GO AHEAD, in my personal opinion, I would assume they knew what they were getting into.

This whole thing is fucking stupid anyway, I don't understand why people are even siding with the band. His prices are clearly stated on his site, he did his part and did cover his ass.

Tore: I would e-mail them back and maybe sound like you are trying to come to a compromise with them, nicely lol, and offer them a median price so that you get paid and get them out of your hair.

Does the fact that I don't even have a MySpace for one of my bands mean that I can't afford James Murphy to mix an EP? No. I can afford it, the MySpace argument holds no water at all, it's actually completely irrelevant if you ask me.
 
Take it for what it is, you both acted like unprofessional cunts and you got burned.

They should have paid you period and are total cunts for not doing so
, but you should have made sure it wasn't gonna be such a sticker shock at the end. I would never do a project without the band at least having a clue about the damages in the end. You should have updated them on price once you got the rough mix done and let them know how much time it was taking.

To put it in perspective, if I hired someone at $60 an hour and he said "ok" and I didn't hear from him in a week and he billed me for a week of work I would be pissed because I had no idea he was gonna need all week to get it done. Everyone has a pretty decent idea of how long things are gonna take within an hour of digging into something. I would have let them know after that hour was up to avoid headache all around.

Honestly I thought your communication was shit as well, if I don't hear from someone in 5-6 days that I am paying I get irritated. Don't take on the work if your not really going to take on the work.

If you couldn't give the project what it deserved then you should have sent them on their way.

Also: I don't know if your short tempered or what, but I would have personally needed at least one more back and forth before losing my cool in communication. Bands are always going to be unprofessional tools, don't stoop to that level until you really need to :lol:.
 
Then I think it is irresponsible on the part of the producer NOT to double check these types of things (he didn't even single check with an average daily quote). Because that would have scared them off.
again you start off reasonable and then go all kooky... your last sentence here seems to be an effort by you, for unknown reasons, to draw a link between the perceived failings of the producer to follow through on his business correspondence, and some sort of mal-intent you've somehow dreamt up on the producer's part to deceive the band into working with him. :err:

So you find it beyond the realms of sanity, that I think a bands myspace who has less than 2000 friends in 3 years, would throw up a flag for ME that they probably can't afford professional studio work, after they asked the price?
no, i simply find a band's "myspace friend count" beyond the realms of relevance. most of my unsigned clients have very few myspace friends... but one or more of the members have good day jobs, and honestly i get my full rate far more often from unsigned, no-name bands that have no labels and few "myspace friends" than i do from signed artists or their labels.

it's truly odd that you think this issue of myspace friends has any bearing on the matter whatsoever.... or perhaps it's just naiveté on your part?

Just like it should have been part of the legwork for the band to see what the producer was all about from his website. A small bit of research gives you an idea what the band is all about (and the producer).

Lets face it, if a band emails an average producer, you know the next step is the producer googling the band/myspace to see/hear what they are dealing with. I mean it would be bad business not to research a band before pouring 2 days of work without a quote.
the only research a producer should be doing is in regard to whether or not he likes the band in question, and thinks their songs and talents will be a good match for his own, thus making the joint effort worthwhile as something beyond a simple work-for-pay transaction. IOW, an artistic endeavor.

but at the root is still a business transaction and once i'm given work files and the go-ahead to do a project, i feel that this is implicit of the artist's knowledge of my rates.

i'll agree that the producer in this case should have answered his email, but he does post his rates online, and the artist should have checked the site out thoroughly, or simply waited for, or insisted on, a reply before authorizing work to begin and providing the files.

The band IMO is simply RIGHT not to want to pay.
yep, that's def your opinion and you've made it clear. and you have every right to it, and i would never challenge your right to it. it's wrong, but your right to your own opinion extends to wrong opinions as well... so you're covered, :lol:

Because they asked, he didn't tell.
and there's that nasty leap of logic again... despite the fact that he's already stated that he missed that email... you'll just go ahead and characterize it as a malicious attempt to ensnare. rock on.

How can you assume that a band even knows it takes 2 days to mix/master one song?
9 minute song that he didn't track. i'd likely spend more than 2 days.

but hey, that's why i work for pre-arranged, per project or per song fees.... but this guy doesn't, and the band certainly had access to that info.

hey, in the end both parties dropped the ball here a bit, to varying degrees.. but if the band like the mix, they'll pay him for it. all that seems to me to need working out at this point is whether they like it enough to pay the full rate, or if Tore is amenable to a reduced rate as acknowledgment of his part in the misunderstanding.
 
again you start off reasonable and then go all kooky... your last sentence here seems to be an effort by you, for unknown reasons, to draw a link between the perceived failings of the producer to follow through on his business correspondence, and some sort of mal-intent you've somehow dreamt up on the producer's part to deceive the band into working with him. :err:

no, i simply find a band's "myspace friend count" beyond the realms of relevance. most of my unsigned clients have very few myspace friends... but one or more of the members have good day jobs, and honestly i get my full rate far more often from unsigned, no-name bands that have no labels and few "myspace friends" than i do from signed artists or their labels.

it's truly odd that you think this issue of myspace friends has any bearing on the matter whatsoever.... or perhaps it's just naive.

the only research a producer should be doing is in regard to whether or not he likes the band in question, and thinks their songs and talents will be a good match for his own, thus making the joint effort worthwhile as something beyond a simple work-for-pay transaction. IOW, an artistic endeavor.

but at the root is still a business transaction and once i'm given work files and the go-ahead to do a project, i feel that this is implicit of artist's knowledge of my rates.

i'll agree that the producer in this case should have answered his email, but he does post his rates online, and the artist should have checked the site out thoroughly, or simply waited for, or insisted on, a reply before authorizing work to begin and providing the files.

yep, that's def your opinion and you've made it clear. and you have every right to it, and i would never challenge your right to it. it's wrong, but your right to your own opinion extends to wrong opinions as well... so you're covered, :lol:

and there's that nasty leap of logic again... despite the fact that he's already stated that he missed that email... you'll just go ahead and characterize it as a malicious attempt to ensnare. rock on.

9 minute song that he didn't track. i'd likely spend more than 2 days.

but hey, that's why i work for pre-arranged, per project or per song fees.... but this guy doesn't, and the band certainly had access to that info.

hey, in the end both parties dropped the ball here a bit, to varying degrees.. but if the band like the mix, they'll pay him for it. all that seems to me to need working out at this point is whether they like it enough to pay the full rate, or if Tore is amenable to a reduced rate as acknowledgment of his part in the misunderstanding.

Twisted my words a lot through most of your response.

But we both came to the same conclusion at the end, so it is all academic. I think both are at fault, and I think he should reduce the price. His correspondence was lazy, and they were brain dead.