Mixing session done - band refuses to pay
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arv_foh
Brian K
Argue all you want, but this is the bottom line.
There was no contract drawn up, stating the services the band would receive and what the engineer would receive in return. There is no legal recourse the engineer can take against the band. Do I think it is not right for someone to not be paid for their work? Absolutely not, but both parties are at fault here.
I went on tour with a band for a month--They paid me half at the beginning of the tour and were supposed to pay me half at the end. They ran out of money so I took into good faith that they would pay me later. I didn't make them sign a contract, which was a mistake on my end. A year later and I still had no money. They tried to accuse me of stealing while on tour as a copout to not pay me. That's how low these scumbags were. The only reason I ever got my money is because the band booked a headlining show at my venue and I told my boss the PA was not even getting turned on until I had my money.
There was piss poor communication on both ends. The engineer takes 2 weeks to respond to an email? Come on. Like you're THAT busy that you can't take 30 seconds to shoot them an email back. Not to mention he never even mentioned the price to begin with. There was not a deposit made to start the work. Both parties are at fault here, and I agree that you should drop the price and hopefully they will have some sensibility and pay you for your hard work.
There was no contract drawn up, stating the services the band would receive and what the engineer would receive in return. There is no legal recourse the engineer can take against the band. Do I think it is not right for someone to not be paid for their work? Absolutely not, but both parties are at fault here.
I went on tour with a band for a month--They paid me half at the beginning of the tour and were supposed to pay me half at the end. They ran out of money so I took into good faith that they would pay me later. I didn't make them sign a contract, which was a mistake on my end. A year later and I still had no money. They tried to accuse me of stealing while on tour as a copout to not pay me. That's how low these scumbags were. The only reason I ever got my money is because the band booked a headlining show at my venue and I told my boss the PA was not even getting turned on until I had my money.
There was piss poor communication on both ends. The engineer takes 2 weeks to respond to an email? Come on. Like you're THAT busy that you can't take 30 seconds to shoot them an email back. Not to mention he never even mentioned the price to begin with. There was not a deposit made to start the work. Both parties are at fault here, and I agree that you should drop the price and hopefully they will have some sensibility and pay you for your hard work.
Yeah, I don't know what goes on in some of your heads, but as James said you have the right to your opinions. Even when you're wrong. I do have my prices clearly stated on the site thank you very much, and even with what I mentioned in the email right after I posted the roughmix (a couple of hours per day (stretched over 5 days approx) plus a whole day) should have given them a ballpark figure of what it might cost in the end. Had they even reacted at that point and alerted me that it would be too expensive for them, I might have had renegotiated or even aborted.
I did kind of fly off the handle a bit towards the end, no question about it. Waiting for four delayed payments totaling around 9000 euros at the moment while not being able to pay the rent certainly plays its part, and to be met with such bullshit as "oops, it was more expensive than we thought, we will not pay" didn't exactly calm my nerves. But that's beside the point.
I might have offered a price cut IF they had addressed the matter in a proper way. "Are you sure it's 600 eur" is nothing I put in high regard. The band didn't ask for a price cut, they simply stated that it was too expensive and that they wouldn't pay. And I am not willing to negotiate with them.
The fact that I have posted this on the forum (and a few other forums) mean that I have absolutely no hope that they will ever pay, I just wanted to put this out in the open. If we were still negotiating about it I would NEVER even utter a word to anyone but my wife about it, I want to make that VERY clear. So I'm spending these 600 euros on ranting about it.
EDIT: Regarding a contract. I've done hundreds of mixes, productions and masterings and never once have I had to write a contract to get paid in the end. Of course it would make things easier if you have to take it to court or whatever, but in all honesty, has ANYONE here ever done that in a dispute about anything? It's takes ages and it costs a fortune. Sure, contracts are great but I also believe and rely on goodwill and honesty. Sure, I may get burned from time to time but I really can't see how it is my FAULT. Besides, I see labels breaking their contracts with bands left and right and nothing is done about it because the bands probably know that it will just be a pain in the ass for peanuts in the end. So unless it's fucking Apple making a deal with Microsoft, contracts are just toilet paper.
I did kind of fly off the handle a bit towards the end, no question about it. Waiting for four delayed payments totaling around 9000 euros at the moment while not being able to pay the rent certainly plays its part, and to be met with such bullshit as "oops, it was more expensive than we thought, we will not pay" didn't exactly calm my nerves. But that's beside the point.
I might have offered a price cut IF they had addressed the matter in a proper way. "Are you sure it's 600 eur" is nothing I put in high regard. The band didn't ask for a price cut, they simply stated that it was too expensive and that they wouldn't pay. And I am not willing to negotiate with them.
The fact that I have posted this on the forum (and a few other forums) mean that I have absolutely no hope that they will ever pay, I just wanted to put this out in the open. If we were still negotiating about it I would NEVER even utter a word to anyone but my wife about it, I want to make that VERY clear. So I'm spending these 600 euros on ranting about it.
EDIT: Regarding a contract. I've done hundreds of mixes, productions and masterings and never once have I had to write a contract to get paid in the end. Of course it would make things easier if you have to take it to court or whatever, but in all honesty, has ANYONE here ever done that in a dispute about anything? It's takes ages and it costs a fortune. Sure, contracts are great but I also believe and rely on goodwill and honesty. Sure, I may get burned from time to time but I really can't see how it is my FAULT. Besides, I see labels breaking their contracts with bands left and right and nothing is done about it because the bands probably know that it will just be a pain in the ass for peanuts in the end. So unless it's fucking Apple making a deal with Microsoft, contracts are just toilet paper.
Zack Uidl
Member
Contracts are very important. If someone signs a contract with you, they take you way more seriously. I have never gotten burned in anyway (related to business things) as I always have contracts. Students, colleagues, etc.
A contract does not have to even be complicated. Just bullet points stating what you will do and what the other party will do. Even plain language is fine in most cases.
Seems really dumb, no offense meant bro, that you wouldn't. You said you are waiting on four delayed payments totally 9000 Euros. I doubt this number would be there at all if you actually made a simple contract.
Yes, going to court would be a total pain, but that is not the only benefit to a contract.
Actually the other three payments ARE under contract (as production cost in the bands' contracts) and invoices are issued. But even so I VERY RARELY get paid in time. You can point to the contract until you poke a hole in it, you can slap on the delay fee on the invoices but it doesn't make the money come in faster.
The deals I make ALWAYS involve pre-payment, and I ALWAYS have to nag the labels over and over about it. Usually the money has not come in when the recording is supposed to start, but moving a production even a day for me means an absolute scheduling DISASTER since the studio is usually booked for up to a year ahead and it would mean that everything needs to be moved. It's just not a workable option to wait until the money comes in.
Honestly I really cannot believe that no-one else here has problems with labels stalling the payments over and over and over. It's been the story of my life ever since I started the business. And the bigger the label, the more problems. Sure, sometimes everything works out great! But most of the time it definitely doesn't.
Zack Uidl
Member
I'll just say that I have only not been paid on time 3 times in my life. All three of those times I was told at least 2 weeks in advance and I worked something out with them to help them out (they were students of mine who had something bad happen like they lost their job.)
Honestly, one reason that I think people are less likely to pay you on time has to do you with what I saw in that transcript. You definitely took a very long time to reply to their emails. Even if you simply state that you received the email, that will keep them more satisfied.
If someone takes a long time to reply to me via email or doesn't return phone calls quickly (I am not talking about instantly....I am reasonable
) I do not take them seriously. End of story. If they do not care enough to keep in touch, I will not invest energy and time into pursuing it.
Honestly, one reason that I think people are less likely to pay you on time has to do you with what I saw in that transcript. You definitely took a very long time to reply to their emails. Even if you simply state that you received the email, that will keep them more satisfied.
If someone takes a long time to reply to me via email or doesn't return phone calls quickly (I am not talking about instantly....I am reasonable
) I do not take them seriously. End of story. If they do not care enough to keep in touch, I will not invest energy and time into pursuing it.
HandsOfDespair
Member
Honestly, one reason that I think people are less likely to pay you on time has to do you with what I saw in that transcript. You definitely took a very long time to reply to their emails. Even if you simply state that you received the email, that will keep them more satisfied.
If someone takes a long time to reply to me via email or doesn't return phone calls quickly (I am not talking about instantly....I am reasonable
This. Sorry but I just can't understand how you couldn't take 10 minutes before going to bed to check your emails. I really hate when I'm working with someone who takes ages answering my emails. If I'd been the band member contacting you and you wouldn't have answered my email 1 week later, I'd simply choose another studio.
Jarkko Mattheiszen
The FU guy.
When I'm in the middle of a production I often cut off all my ties with reality. It's just the way I work and it's usually not an issue. With some clients I work with, I basically tell them to nag me if I am slow with replies and it doesn't seem to be a big deal to them.
This mix was a "minor" job for me, something I normally don't deal with but throw in when I have some time over, and the band was clearly quite eager for me to do it. They could at any time have turned to another studio and I wouldn't have cried about it. I'm sure I loose a client or two by not responding swiftly, but the people I work with in the studio usually know that I put my soul into it WHILE THEY ARE THERE and I'm sure they appreciate that more than getting a fast reply to their emails.
So if you answer your emails on a daily basis, fine. If you turn down people who don't answer quickly, fine. I never forced the band to work with me, they were insisting on it.
El_Gato
I love this gain
AE union workers!!
Nah seriously, bad luck. But here in Spain (I guess Portugal too) we have the oral/spoken contracts and in your case it's easy to prove you're right (you have the files) if you want to demand. Only the threat should be enough for them to pay.
You had price list in your web? nothing else to argue.
Nah seriously, bad luck. But here in Spain (I guess Portugal too) we have the oral/spoken contracts and in your case it's easy to prove you're right (you have the files) if you want to demand. Only the threat should be enough for them to pay.
You had price list in your web? nothing else to argue.
::XeS::
Member
Unfortunatelly delayed payments are part of the deal, always. It's not a perfect world so the clients are not serious.
My father is the owner of a big service company here in my town....he has delayed payment for a 5 zero's amount (it's a X00.000€ amount)....some of these clients was sued by my father, others delayed the payment by 1+ years......Don't know how it works in other countries but here is the normality (unfortunatelly).
There are incomes the same, but all that money out is not good.
Very often when the lawyer writes to the bad clients, after a year of reminders, they become offended and they say "And for only 200€ you did that?" or something like that. It's patetic because you can reply "and if it's only 200€ why you didn't pay me immediatelly?"...
My father is the owner of a big service company here in my town....he has delayed payment for a 5 zero's amount (it's a X00.000€ amount)....some of these clients was sued by my father, others delayed the payment by 1+ years......Don't know how it works in other countries but here is the normality (unfortunatelly).
There are incomes the same, but all that money out is not good.
Very often when the lawyer writes to the bad clients, after a year of reminders, they become offended and they say "And for only 200€ you did that?" or something like that. It's patetic because you can reply "and if it's only 200€ why you didn't pay me immediatelly?"...
TheDude
Jocke Skog
HandsOfDespair
Member
They mentioned DsO as the main reference in the letter attached with the tracks so I went a lot in that direction for my mix. Too bad nobody will ever get to hear it.
They mentioned DsO as the main reference in the letter attached with the tracks so I went a lot in that direction for my mix. Too bad nobody will ever get to hear it.
you should throwup the rough mix, or maybe a semi-final with beeps/pauses/overdubs on it, really curious to see how you did with this. everything you've done with watain, ondskapt, ofermod, funeral mist, malign, etc...it's all great work.
HollowmanPL
Member
- May 29, 2008
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