Muslim Maniacs!

[Norsemaiden]

Queen Isabella's reign in Spain lasted from 1451 to 1504. During this time and just afterwards Spain enjoyed its golden age. Highlights of the period up to about the mid 1600s are: Columbus sailing to America, Cortez conquering the Aztecs and taking their gold, the Spannish Armada, and the taking of many colonies: by 1516 Spain controlled S Italy, Netherlands and Burgundy in France. BY 1550s Spain controlled most of South America, Central America, Florida, Cuba, and in Asia the Philippine islands. In 1580 Portugal became part of Spain.

There were two substantial European wars and by this time Spain had a population with much blood from a mixture of Muslims, Jews, Gypsies and black slaves. These factors combined to lead to Spain's decline.

Now Spain is once again under threat from the Muslims who were overthrown about 700 years ago. Spain is in a unique situation being the only apostate nation in the world. An apostate is someone who used to be Muslim but deserted the religion. This is a serious sin in Islam. All apostates are to be forced on pain of death to reconvert, and if they hesitate, to be killed. Muslim fundamentalists hold that Spain is resisting reconversion and thus they condemn the Spanish people to death. The centuries that have passed have not weakened this resolve. When Al Qaeda did the murderous terrorist bomb attack on the train in spring 2004, just before the general elections, the terrorists claimed this was justified because Spain is an apostate nation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1695582,00.html

 

[Nicola]

Triple talaq. Wikepedia describes as a controversial Sunni Islamic procedure whereby a husband can divorce his wife by saying "talaq" to her three times. Lists 2 hadiths about it. Pakistan and Bangladesh are listed as still permitting this as law.

August 2004 Fatwa on Triple Divorce, or Triple Talaq from Islam Online, a considerably better source than Wikipedia considering that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, at anytime, to say anything. [Example--> "A false Wikipedia 'biography'" by John Seigenthaler, Sr.

And the Wikipedia article that, I believe, you referred to as listing that Pakistan and Bangladesh still permit Triple Talaq actually lists them as having banned the practice under the 'Legal Status' heading--> Wikipedia-Triple Talaq

 

[Norsemaiden]

August 2004 Fatwa on Triple Divorce, or Triple Talaq from Islam Online, a considerably better source than Wikipedia considering that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, at anytime, to say anything. [Example--> "A false Wikipedia 'biography'" by John Seigenthaler, Sr.

And the Wikipedia article that, I believe, you referred to as listing that Pakistan and Bangladesh still permit Triple Talaq actually lists them as having banned the practice under the 'Legal Status' heading--> Wikipedia-Triple Talaq

I didn't know anyone could edit Wikepedia like that so thanks for that information. I actually don't give a stuff what the legal situation is with this talaq thing. The main point is that it is at least an old Islamic tradition, and you can bet anything that plenty of the more fundamentalist Muslims still respect it. They have some real brutal practices in some of the more backward areas. Am I the only person here who has heard about the brutality shown towards a woman who has been raped? In some places, she is the one held responible for seducing her attacker (in the case I remember it was her brother-in-law) and her punishment was that she had to be raped by the chiefs of the village. Just the way the women have to cover up, or be beaten up or the way in Afghanistan the Taliban put women's lives at serious risk when giving birth because they had to stay in their house, cover their body as much as possible and not be seen by a man. In some, if not most, Muslim countries women must be chaperoned by having a man with them whenever they go outdoors - or else they are a slut and will be spat on or attacked. I'll see what I can do for sources, but surely someone else has heard of this?!

http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2002/0606/cn8-2.html
"Honour killings are rampant in Pakistan's feudal dominated rural and tribal areas with an HRCP report citing 1,600 cases of such killings in the country this year."

The wikepedia article says India still permits talaq - not Bangladesh and Pakistan, the punctuation is confusing. Anyway the above situation shows the state of "law" in Pakistan. Are you converting to Islam Nicola?

 

[Nicola]

I didn't know anyone could edit Wikepedia like that so thanks for that information. I actually don't give a stuff what the legal situation is with this talaq thing. The main point is that it is at least an old Islamic tradition, and you can bet anything that plenty of the more fundamentalist Muslims still respect it. They have some real brutal practices in some of the more backward areas. Am I the only person here who has heard about the brutality shown towards a woman who has been raped? In some places, she is the one held responible for seducing her attacker (in the case I remember it was her brother-in-law) and her punishment was that she had to be raped by the chiefs of the village. Just the way the women have to cover up, or be beaten up or the way in Afghanistan the Taliban put women's lives at serious risk when giving birth because they had to stay in their house, cover their body as much as possible and not be seen by a man. In some, if not most, Muslim countries women must be chaperoned by having a man with them whenever they go outdoors - or else they are a slut and will be spat on or attacked. I'll see what I can do for sources, but surely someone else has heard of this?!

I've read articles and books and seen documentaries about all of these things. I can't verify the accuracy of the site or the 'Princess' trilogy of books (which I've read) but they're worth a look.--> Princess Sultana's Circle

No, I am not converting to Islam, I simply pointed out a few errors. I abhor brutality in all its forms and do not condone it, especially in a religious context. I didn't wish to imply that I was in favor of the practice.

I thought I would post this just to make that clear:

My Very Generalized and Biased View of Religion

I consider all religion, old and new, monotheistic and polytheistic, to be a hindrance to mankind. It, to me, is nothing but a collection of fables written by man to enable him to wield power over the weak and ignorant.
This view is partially formed from direct and indirect contact with other religions, growing up amongst Holy-rolling, in tongues-speaking, live rattlesnake-handling Southern Baptists, and a general dislike of your average person. The only religion I put any merit in is Baha'i because, in my view, they genuinely seem to care about themselves, others, and the world around them. Of course, I could be wrong . . .


EDIT: Interesting quote:
"If…no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death." DEUTERONOMY 22:13-30 NIV

Islam doesn't have a monopoly on this sort of thing, although they certainly tend to put more weight on it these days, it seems.

 

[Neith]

To Norsemaiden: who said anything about Sunday schoool teachings?

Perhaps the only valuable thing i have learned from this discusssion is that basically everyone has their own opinion on everything, and if you care enough about you opinion you can find anything to back it up, whether the source is useful, correct or has any basis in fact at all. The internet is much like statistics, they can be used to back up anything, and they can say anything you want them to say. For example, there is statistical 'evidence' that Scotland is the most violent country in the world, especially where knive crime is concerned. Frankly i think this is utter rubbish and i dont feel that i need to find any 'reliable sources' to back this up. Now i know that was off topic but it was just to illustrate that just because the BBC or any other information source has put their stamp on it, it does not qualify it as fact. With regard to fact, i think its something far too elusive to be ever be 100% verified, especially with regard to history.
I also do not think anyone is qualified to state that the Bible is a work of fiction as fact. Indeed, it may be, and indeed there are scientists who have 'proved' that it cannot be true. However, there is also scientific evidence to back up the Bible, and archaeologists have used the Bible to find things of archaeological and historical interest. There are also scientists who have evidence to suggest that there was a flood. Just to point out, non of these scientists were religious.
Many women and men who are raped in Europe, or Britain at least, are thought of as perhaps being the cause of the rape, and face ill treatment from family and friends as a consequence of rape. I do not see what your statements about muslims hasve to do with anything, of course i agree that is should not happen, and that it is shocking, but lets put things a little in perspective here. In Christian Europe, many, many children are abused at the hands of siblings, parents, teachers, friends, police, other officials and PRIESTS. This has gone on for centuries. Perhaps the west should do something about this before interfering in cultures and religions that it is does not understand fully.
You mentioned the women being made to cover up and so on, and of women being raped. The causes of this and the amount that this has happened have all increased since the interference of the west.

Having said all of this (which is all my opinion, incorporating what is thought of as fact frequently), i can but repeat that all of this discussion is based on opinion, our own and that of scientists and scholars. I also wish to say that it is good that you stick by what you believe, whether i agree with it or not

Also, if what you say of the Jews is correct, and i sincerely doubt that it is, (i have also been doing some reading concerning the Jews, i may quote some at a later date), then i hope that they vanquish the Catholic church for good because it is the worst thing that has ever happened to the world. Except the creation of mankind perhaps.

 

[EphelDuath]

Triple talaq. Wikepedia describes as a controversial Sunni Islamic procedure whereby a husband can divorce his wife by saying "talaq" to her three times. Lists 2 hadiths about it. Pakistan and Bangladesh are listed as still permitting this as law.

BEST SOURCE POSSIBLE TO FIND!!! The BBC,regarding the myth of egyptian slavery: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/3chapter2.shtml

well,i know many muslims,i lived with many of them and unfortunately living currently with a few muslims.So i know their rules exactly much than anybody else who is discussing in this forum.

 

[Neith]

well,i know many muslims,i lived with many of them and unfortunately living currently with a few muslims.So i know their rules exactly much than anybody else who is discussing in this forum.

That has been on my mind whilst reading and contributing to this topic, I know that there are Muslims or at least people who live in Muslim countries on this forum who could contribute much more factually correct information than we can. I have lived in Turkey and I am aware that I am far from an expert, but I do not think that the things which have been mentioned in this thread are correct, at least not in Turkey. But you should correct me on this if I am wrong.

@ Norsemaiden, I will get back to you in 5 years when I have started and completed my degree in the Ancient Civilisations of the Mediteranean and Middle East, about whether slavery existed in Egypt, and if it did, whether the slaves helped to build the pyramids....thats if I get accepted on the course

 

[derek]

I will get back to you in 5 years when I have started and completed my degree in the Ancient Civilisations of the Mediteranean and Middle East, about whether slavery existed in Egypt, and if it did, whether the slaves helped to build the pyramids....thats if I get accepted on the course

Best thing you will ever do.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Neith, is it fair to say that you are one of those who think that no one can ever prove anything at all about anything? I'm not criticising, because that is a possible opinion, although not one I agree with.

 

[speed]

That has been on my mind whilst reading and contributing to this topic, I know that there are Muslims or at least people who live in Muslim countries on this forum who could contribute much more factually correct information than we can. I have lived in Turkey and I am aware that I am far from an expert, but I do not think that the things which have been mentioned in this thread are correct, at least not in Turkey. But you should correct me on this if I am wrong.

@ Norsemaiden, I will get back to you in 5 years when I have started and completed my degree in the Ancient Civilisations of the Mediteranean and Middle East, about whether slavery existed in Egypt, and if it did, whether the slaves helped to build the pyramids....thats if I get accepted on the course

In the last few years archeaologists have uncovered the pyramid workers living area: a massive space in which they found thousands and thousands of animal bones, leading researchers to believe that the workers of the pyramid were well-paid and cared for, and were fed the best of diets to keep them strong. Since finding this area, most if not all archealogists now believe the pyramid workers were highly regarded and far from slaves.

 

[the mourner13]

hey I'm a muslim and we have got no such stupid things.You must come to Istanbul and see the way we live,it's not different from your lifes...Unfortunately this is not so in every muslim country.there are some muslims that are living the way you talked about.But i just want you to know there are some NORMAL muslims too..

 

[the mourner13]

It would surely be no surprise if the Israelis (or US government) think that right now is the ideal opportunity to bomb Iran as well as the Hamas parliament in Palestine.

The Western public opinion would simply be to regard this action as a heroic stance in favour of liberty. Any other time, there would be global condemnation, but the Muslims have really laid themselves open to attack with the way they are over reacting to those cartoons of Mohammed.

I agree with you that the muslims are overreacting.But you must also know that cartoon of MOhammed is disrespectful to our beliefs...

 

[Neith]

Neith, is it fair to say that you are one of those who think that no one can ever prove anything at all about anything? I'm not criticising, because that is a possible opinion, although not one I agree with.

no, I wouldn't say that, but I just don't always agree with what people have to say based on the things i have learned myself, and I do not think that just because someone has a degree in a particular subject means that they are right about said subject. If what has been learned is true, then fair enough, but there are many people who still advocate that there were slaves in Egypt, whether they built the pyramids or not. I just think its a stupid thing to say that there were not any at all. As for teams of non-slaves building the pyramids, I know this already, but I do think that it is possible that slaves were also set to work on them, as a result of reading a variety of works.

 

[infoterror]

When Life of Brian came out how much was there a Christain outcry around the world because of the movies content.

There's Christian outcry all the time in the USA. And try denying or making fun of the Holocaust, and wow, you're in deep shit. Not only that, but blaspheming the race taboo is crossing a line. It's not quite as demonized, but if you express support for ecoterrorists, people view you as an al-Qaeda member. And we all know they're allied with... SATAN and HITLER both.

 

[Norsemaiden]

In the last few years archeaologists have uncovered the pyramid workers living area: a massive space in which they found thousands and thousands of animal bones, leading researchers to believe that the workers of the pyramid were well-paid and cared for, and were fed the best of diets to keep them strong. Since finding this area, most if not all archealogists now believe the pyramid workers were highly regarded and far from slaves.

Thanks for backing me up Speed. I think the ancient Egyptians have been much maligned by accusations of slavery.

 

[Falconspirit]

Hey all...just thought it would be nice to give you my personal opinion about most of the matters discussed around here given the fact that some of you were asking for the insight of someone who lives in the Middle-East. Well I am not muslim, but I live in a country where interaction between Muslims and Christians has been going on since forever. I have many Muslim friends, and for those who don't know alot about Lebanon, the approximate percentage of Muslims in the country is 60%, this was much less previously but due to the civil wars and the economic crisis many Christians have left the country in search of better lives.
I will try to comment on some of the things that have been stated in this thread, but I have to be frank...I didn't have the time to read all the posts.

This has yet to happen in the middle east, they still hold their century old laws and ways true inspite of the problems it causes for both themselves and the rest of the world

I partially agree with this statement, the presence of Islam in the Middle-East has been causing a sort of drawback for the whole region, we do get the feeling that we are sometimes living in the Middle Ages but this is changing and is not completely true anymore. At least in my country, where Christian presence and influence from the West has changed our culture and society progressively. Many Muslim women (In general Sunnis) do not wear veils, they wear western clothing, put make up, go clubbing dancing etc...Most Muslim men do NOT marry more than one woman in their lives, women are respected in general..but unfortunately there still are many exceptions or shall I say incidents that are generally occuring amongst Shiites living in the countryside or the south.

Now, about the cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed. Personally, I was against their publication in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind seeing people publish cartoons about religious figures be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish; and I am definitely for freedom of speech but I know it comes with responsibility. The reason I am against their publication is simple. As a person living in the Middle-East and having interaction with Muslims, I am aware that the depiction of the prophet is strictly forbidden, in fact as most of you are aware there are no pictures, Icons or any images that represent the prophet in Islam. They refuse, and do not worship such things. Paradoxically, the Christian religion is actually based on such representations. Now given the fact that most educated journalists would at least be aware that drawing such cartoons would be met with anger by the Muslims ESPECIALLY given the current position the world is taking towards Muslims and Arabs in general. I'll give you an example that relates to the issue: If you have a close friend that you always joke around with, and you happen to joke about his mother he would probably joke about your mother or laugh about it. He knows you, he respects you...On the other hand, if you have a friend or lets say an acquaintance...someone you met recently, you have had disagreements before he is moody, and you happen to joke or insult his mother and YOU KNOW he doesn't like that. What would you expect from him, he'd probably hit you in the face or insult your mother and family.
Now I know this isn't exactly the same with what has happened, but it is the same idea. Furthermore, most Muslims are known to be stubborn about their religion, see Islam is about dedication and even the word "Islam" in arabic means giving in...giving in to God and your faith. So why give them reason to have something against you?
I know many of the Muslims are wrong, in fact I think it is stupid to accuse the Danish government or to ban their products...Why accuse the Danish people?
This is what I have to say for now about the matter, I'm sorry if I didn't comment on other related posts, or if I repeated something already said in the thread. So feel free to comment/criticize what I said.
Cheers,

 

[derek]

I see the whole affair as an irresponsible and aggravating act that has recieved nothing but irresponsible and idiotic acts in response.

 

[Lord SteveO]

Couldn't have summed it up better.

But it is ridiculous it's still ongoing even after more than a week since the republishings, and several months since the original publishing of the cartoons.
Maybe the cartoons should not have been published, it was pretty much asking for trouble.
But then again, Islamic law doesn't mean shit in Denmark, a country which is nearly all Christian in religion.

The west needs to stop winding up the middle east and muslim countries. And those muslim countries and worshippers need to realise that their religious law does not govern the whole world and that things may happen which they find offensive. Plus the muslim world needs to realise that calling for murder and beheadings does then no favours, in fact it just proves the cartoonist correct and looses them a lot of support in the west.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

hey I'm a muslim and we have got no such stupid things.You must come to Istanbul and see the way we live,it's not different from your lifes...Unfortunately this is not so in every muslim country.there are some muslims that are living the way you talked about.But i just want you to know there are some NORMAL muslims too..

i guess most Americans thinking that all Muslims are terrorists is kind of like how there are several places in Africa where the black people won't come to America because they think that all white Americans are Neo-Nazis/KKK members... Americans know the Africans are being stupid, but at the same time Americans are also being stupid in the exact same way

 

[Norsemaiden]

Falconspirit made some valuable points, such as about how it was predictable that publishing the cartoons would cause trouble. The question is though, how far do we have to go in the West to avoid upsetting Muslim feelings? In cities in Britain where there are Muslims working in offices with normal British people there has been pressure put on the non-Muslims to cover their arms and legs during the hot summer days when it makes sense to have short sleeves. A young woman was stabbed for wearing a bikini top while sitting near a fountain on a hot day - by an angry offended Muslim. Even Christmas is a source of offense. Perhaps someone can help me remember which English city it was which renamed Christmas "Winterval" in order not to offend other faiths.
Another thought: what of the large number of British people who find the sight of Muslims in traditional dress (in Britain) offensive. The law is often more concerned with protecting the feelings of the minority than the feelings of the majority. The exception to this is when the head wear (hajib) was banned in France for Muslim schoolgirls - but Britain is unwilling to do this too.