Nationalism and Homogeneity

rhodesia "very well run"? that is the same thing the west said about saddam hussein in the 80's and general suharto's indonesia in the 70's. the obvious question is, "well run" for who? the elites, obviously. most people never benefitted significantly under either colonial or independent rule, the latter largely because of, once again, international political dynamcis, the military industrial complex, and capital accumulation. elementary sociology my friend.

Certainly the elite benefited most - but the people were not starving like they are now, and the food shortage is affecting the rest of Africa. The Blacks can't run the farms. They don't want to bother. Then they will find some way to blame the Whites for the crops not growing by themselves. The Africans have a typical tyrannical leader who lives in disgusting wealth while his people suffer and die. That is the kind of leader Africans, and Blacks throughout the world admire and aspire to become. They only respect bullies. In fact they have even corrupted the world "respect" to mean subordination.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8020
From Breadbasket to Dustbowl

UNTIL 2000, ZIMBABWE WAS the breadbasket of Africa, exporting wheat, tobacco, and corn to the rest of the continent and beyond. Zimbabwe contains the most fertile farmland on the continent, and until recently was a tourist Mecca, home of Victoria Falls, one the seven natural wonders of the world, and numerous game reserves, now nearly emptied by poachers and starving peasants.

How To Kill A Country

Turning a breadbasket into a basket case in ten easy steps—the Robert Mugabe way
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200312/power
 
Certainly the elite benefited most - but the people were not starving like they are now, and the food shortage is affecting the rest of Africa. The Blacks can't run the farms. They don't want to bother. Then they will find some way to blame the Whites for the crops not growing by themselves. The Africans have a typical tyrannical leader who lives in disgusting wealth while his people suffer and die. That is the kind of leader Africans, and Blacks throughout the world admire and aspire to become. They only respect bullies. In fact they have even corrupted the world "respect" to mean subordination.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8020





http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200312/power


all areas of the world throughout various periods of history exhibit the phenomenon of tyrannical leaders living in opulence amidst subordination and poverty.

i don't support mugabe's authoritarianism, but from what i've read a lot of the problem can legitimately be placed on the british/west and the unequal distribution of land. same thing in south africa. multiple groups, blacks, whites, etc. contribute to the problems in a country like zimbabwe, just like anywhere
 
Objectively, the most superior life forms on Earth are bacteria.
Success = survival, not of the individual but of the type

Superiority (unless we are talking specifically about a superior ability to do x) has nothing to do with how clever or how "nice" a race or species is.

The reason that I don't go out and try to cultivate these "superior" bacteria even at the expense of my own life, is because of the principles as explained in Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene".

Any biological group not acting in accordance with this goes extinct and is the ultimate failure.

The White race is at present undergoing a speciation within itself - most will go the way of the Dodo, and are doomed to extinction through their lack of discrimination and lack of will to reproduce compared to those who have adopted a more successful strategy.

In evolution, most species have gone extinct, while better adapted, more successful species have supplanted them.
 
man, quite a bit of what you said is really ridiculous, but i guess pointing it out in such blunt terms won't do any good. so i'll elaborate.

haiti was a huge slave economy for the french. post french rule has seen haiti run by various dictators backed with western support/arms sales.


Under the French, there were no problems like that. Slavery was the bad part I, but it is now a hell hole and it isn’t because of the West, it is because of the people who live there. The very first explorers of Africa recorded their feelings about them, they regarded them as evil cannibalistic savages…I don’t agree with hatred against Africans they have every right to live and they are racially aware and that is their benefit.

you really hype IQ, don't you? IQ is held to be such a great standard by everyone. even if some people have higher IQ's on average, doesn't mean people with lower IQ's on average could't create the same types of industrial/representative democracies that israel, japan, western europe, the u.s., etc. create. you are a very biologically determinist in your views, something that as i've said doesn't factor in history/international political relations and the dynamics of capitalism. i'm starting to sound like a marxist, but maybe that is because most marxists would find your ideas to be utter rubbish.



Did you not even read what I said? If not I will post it again.

“But you don’t need intelligence to survive, you need survival instincts. I don’t really care to much for the whole racial intelligence debate, I classify humans into races, but I don’t concentrate so much on intelligence I just except the reality that it cause of intelligence to a large extent.”

As far as you sounding like a Marxist, yes that is true and I am very biological determinist unlike the Marxist Soviet Union genetic study, particularly Trofim Denisovich Lysenko with his pseudoscientific doctrine Lysenkoism that ignored biological determinism and focused on the “environment” which caused Soviet genetics to fall behind in the world.


rhodesia "very well run"? that is the same thing the west said about saddam hussein in the 80's and general suharto's indonesia in the 70's. the obvious question is, "well run" for who? the elites, obviously. most people never benefitted significantly under either colonial or independent rule, the latter largely because of, once again, international political dynamcis, the military industrial complex, and capital accumulation. elementary sociology my friend.

Apparently it was very well run for both whites and blacks…in fact the presence of the white man our technological advances in medicine etc exploded the black numbers there until whites were a total minority. Now that whites are virtually gone, take a look at Zimbabwean inflation. The international community isn’t responsible for this, it is the Africans. Elementary sociology? Aren’t the many of the sociologist part of the elite leftist post war Western society? Why do you support and hold the same ideological views of the leftist elite while at the same time blame them for third world problems? Basically, you are falling for their trap, they push the leftist agenda amongst the masses and these leftist blame the West for the world’s problems but it is THEY who control the West! Oh well, it is just an example of we are human and we are goofy bastards at times.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6354783.stm





me, a leftist? :lol: i doubt you are familiar with the concept of post-left anarchy, as espoused by bob black, or anarcho-primitivism, as espoused by john zerzan, two philosophies i have much more affinity with then leftism.

Yes, Primitivists have their beliefs and I respect them for that, it is very similar to leftist ideology even though they deny it…I don’t slander any persons political or personal beliefs. What do you think of Tim Wise??



i wouldn't deny heredity plays a role, which may shock you that i admit such a thing, but i think you and others on the board/the world seriously underestimate the various non-hereditary conditions that effect peoples lives. you adhere so much to your ideology you can't really fully see the facts that don't fit into your perspective.


Likewise, I believe environment plays a role as well. I don’t believe heredity is everything, but it plays the largest role. But you don’t have to be born a genius to become one…hard work and determination works as well. When I talk about heredity, it is obvious some degenerated that murder and rape are obviously born that way, for the most part and no environmental excuse can change that…if we put it in that perspective. Intelligence on the other hand can be acquired without a hereditary gift…you know what I’m saying?
 
Under the French, there were no problems like that. Slavery was the bad part I, but it is now a hell hole and it isn’t because of the West, it is because of the people who live there. The very first explorers of Africa recorded their feelings about them, they regarded them as evil cannibalistic savages…I don’t agree with hatred against Africans they have every right to live and they are racially aware and that is their benefit.





Did you not even read what I said? If not I will post it again.

“But you don’t need intelligence to survive, you need survival instincts. I don’t really care to much for the whole racial intelligence debate, I classify humans into races, but I don’t concentrate so much on intelligence I just except the reality that it cause of intelligence to a large extent.”

As far as you sounding like a Marxist, yes that is true and I am very biological determinist unlike the Marxist Soviet Union genetic study, particularly Trofim Denisovich Lysenko with his pseudoscientific doctrine Lysenkoism that ignored biological determinism and focused on the “environment” which caused Soviet genetics to fall behind in the world.




Apparently it was very well run for both whites and blacks…in fact the presence of the white man our technological advances in medicine etc exploded the black numbers there until whites were a total minority. Now that whites are virtually gone, take a look at Zimbabwean inflation. The international community isn’t responsible for this, it is the Africans. Elementary sociology? Aren’t the many of the sociologist part of the elite leftist post war Western society? Why do you support and hold the same ideological views of the leftist elite while at the same time blame them for third world problems? Basically, you are falling for their trap, they push the leftist agenda amongst the masses and these leftist blame the West for the world’s problems but it is THEY who control the West! Oh well, it is just an example of we are human and we are goofy bastards at times.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6354783.stm







Yes, Primitivists have their beliefs and I respect them for that, it is very similar to leftist ideology even though they deny it…I don’t slander any persons political or personal beliefs. What do you think of Tim Wise??






Likewise, I believe environment plays a role as well. I don’t believe heredity is everything, but it plays the largest role. But you don’t have to be born a genius to become one…hard work and determination works as well. When I talk about heredity, it is obvious some degenerated that murder and rape are obviously born that way, for the most part and no environmental excuse can change that…if we put it in that perspective. Intelligence on the other hand can be acquired without a hereditary gift…you know what I’m saying?

look, i simply am not going to agree with you that haiti and zimbabwe's problems are "the africans," with the serious de-emphasizing of destruction you place on the west. you are looking to purifiy the white man, i am looking to place blame across broader spectrums, including all people regardless of skin color, however, the effects of colonialism, slavery, etc. are prime factors influencing the status quo. there is just too much hatred/killing by the west for me to downplay the military industrial complex, capitalism, etc. in creating the present world we live in.

what exactly do you think i advocate that is "similar to leftists"?
 
I really sympathize with you here Spartacus, because you seem to have a strong grasp of things, yet you 're smart enough not to offer any solutions.


I agree with your sympathy of the natives, or Africans, and their non-westernized (i.e. free from western standards of control, but not native or more primitive standards such as tribe, religion, community). There's something to be said here for such freedom and tradition, even if it gives them poverty and relatively few material things; or even if individual artistic and scientific culture is non-existent, (albeit a ritualized religious /tribal one is present). There's no doubt that we westerners have long been enamored or jealous of the simple and real life of the natives since colonization. This has been a theme for countless western writers, artists, etc.

Ive always held the Africans are in a much different stage of development than the rest of the world. They cannot be judged against western standards. It is only because of the asians traditions of discipline and bureacracy, that I think they've been so successful (and let's face it, only those asian cultures with such traditions--the Chinese Japanese, Indians, yes; the Indonesians, Laotians, Mongolians, without such traditions, no).

I'd also like to say, I have met West Africans who are probably among the smartest people Ive ever known. Any educated West African can speak 4-5 languages easy, and has a variety of skills.

Much of what you guys discuss (in regards to Africa especially), is beyond the 180 IQ economists at the IMF and World Bank (I couldnt help but add that after reading Justin's fantastic comments) , countless authors, professors, historians, state deprtment officials, etc.

Anyway, my point is I think anytime one from one culture far more "advanced (or let's just call it western)" , and without real knowledge and experience of another simpler, less advanced culture, starts criticizing or even trying to find the solutions for this less advanced culture, confusion will result. I'm not saying it can't be done, but what I am saying is that without the economic apparatus and western style bureaucracy etc. (i.e. capitalism and bureacratic state power in all of its forms necessary for capitalism to flourish and function), things like religion, tribal loyalties, family, etc. come into the equation. And the West is long past these ideas and forms of society, passing them by in the quest for money, and supposed positivism. I dare say our present experience in Iraq, or past experiences in South America, Vietnam, etc, are testament to this fact.
 
Ive always held the Africans are in a much different stage of development than the rest of the world. They cannot be judged against western standards.
What then is our disagreement? Is this not the essence of much of this entire discussion? Those who think as I do are not the ones out on the world-stage wailing about so-called global-poverty(or domestic urban poverty for that matter), pandemics like AIDS, lack of modern medicine, industry, starvation etc.
Africans, in and out of Africa are being held to these western standards...but not by me! Myself and others have suggested that separation is a better, more peaceful, practical and hopefully equitable alternative. But this isn't terribly realistic.
And hard reality is the key to this whole debate. Whether or not it is fair, sensible or even reasonable African peoples today, or their representatives, both on the continent and far beyond desire western modernization, full social "inclusion" and the like, as much as anyone. That their "stage of development" is seemingly at odds with this ever occuring organically, or even being being ultimately feasible is the crux of the whole matter is it not?
Anthropologically speaking there may be all manner of theories as to why this is and not a few, I am quite sure, would disagree emphatically with both your and my assessment of this one way or the other. So where do we go from here?
 
look, i simply am not going to agree with you that haiti and zimbabwe's problems are "the africans," with the serious de-emphasizing of destruction you place on the west. you are looking to purifiy the white man, i am looking to place blame across broader spectrums, including all people regardless of skin color, however, the effects of colonialism, slavery, etc. are prime factors influencing the status quo. there is just too much hatred/killing by the west for me to downplay the military industrial complex, capitalism, etc. in creating the present world we live in.

what exactly do you think i advocate that is "similar to leftists"?

Well you and I are on the same page. As far as the leftist, you may not be an extremist leftist or anything, but you have leftist views. That isn't a bad thing...only when it is extreme just like the right wing. I have some liberal view points I would like to add.
 
Ive always held the Africans are in a much different stage of development than the rest of the world. They cannot be judged against western standards.


What then is our disagreement? Is this not the essence of much of this entire discussion? Those who think as I do are not the ones out on the world-stage wailing about so-called global-poverty(or domestic urban poverty for that matter), pandemics like AIDS, lack of modern medicine, industry, starvation etc.
Africans, in and out of Africa are being held to these western standards...but not by me! Myself and others have suggested that separation is a better, more peaceful, practical and hopefully equitable alternative. But this isn't terribly realistic.
And hard reality is the key to this whole debate. Whether or not it is fair, sensible or even reasonable African peoples today, or their representatives, both on the continent and far beyond desire western modernization, full social "inclusion" and the like, as much as anyone. That their "stage of development" is seemingly at odds with this ever occuring organically, or even being being ultimately feasible is the crux of the whole matter is it not?
Anthropologically speaking there may be all manner of theories as to why this is and not a few, I am quite sure, would disagree emphatically with both your and my assessment of this one way or the other. So where do we go from here?

I wasnt disagreeing with you at all ( I think we pretty much hold similar views on most things Oldscratch); in fact, I stopped reading this thread for a long time, and then read the last few posts from Patrick and Sparatcus, and posted on their content.
 
I wasnt disagreeing with you at all ( I think we pretty much hold similar views on most things Oldscratch); in fact, I stopped reading this thread for a long time, and then read the last few posts from Patrick and Sparatcus, and posted on their content.

My apologies - I misunderstood then. (I also agree about the similarity of views, even if we may differ here and there on the finer details)
 
Well you and I are on the same page. As far as the leftist, you may not be an extremist leftist or anything, but you have leftist views. That isn't a bad thing...only when it is extreme just like the right wing. I have some liberal view points I would like to add.

well, i wouldl be considered extreme by most, but not an extreme leftist. just because i'm concerned about socio-economic conditions shedding more light on the status quo then notions of racial hierarchy doesn't mean i fit into most of, or any categories of the left.

about extremism, from my perspective, civilization is about as extreme as one can get, when your standard of normality is foragers/wild nature. your normality is my insanity, and vice versa.
 
It must be remembered that all Africans are not the same. There are thousands of tribes who are in conflict with eachother. And the Bantu agriculturalists have expanded, brutally genociding other tribes along the way.

Africans are almost entirely NOT hunter gatherers by nature.

Africa’s most renowned hunter-gatherer groups, the Pygmies[1] of Central Africa and the Khoisan or ‘San’ of the Kalahari Desert, are surrounded by a cornucopia of edible plants and wild game. Diamond examines the dominant flora and fauna in these two regions to show that that neither Pygmies nor San—or their farming neighbors—have succeeded in domesticating a single native plant or animal species for cultivation. Sub-Saharan Africa’s crops and livestock, like the practice of cultivating them, are all non-indigenous. Both the practices and the raw materials were gradually imported over centuries by invading Bantu farmers from West Africa[2] and, to a lesser degree, by colonizing whites. Both San and Pygmy hunter-gatherers were engulfed by a Bantu majority, to which they reacted by further compressing into their respective natural habitats.[3]

As minority hunter-gatherers surrounded by a farming majority, Central Africa’s Pygmies have fared far worse than the San of the Kalahari. Unlike the Pygmies, San hunter-gatherers retained their original language and lifestyle—against forced modernization efforts by the Botswana government—by remaining geographically concentrated in a harsh desert world whose sole monetary resource is subterranean (diamonds). Not so for Pygmy groups. Seeing their forest world first conquered by outsiders, then divided into protected reserves and game parks, and now increasingly deforested and mined by extractive industries, Pygmies have scattered into a thin diaspora across nine different countries. Displacement and ensuing marginalization has not meant banishment from their forest home, but Pygmies did lose their original language in the process, attesting to the extent of their self-estrangement.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...majority+of+africans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk

The Hamites like Somalis and Tutsis (who can be categorised as Caucasian) are even another race entirely from the bushmen who are also different to the the Bantu (who are negroes with the characteristic "muzzle").
 
It must be remembered that all Africans are not the same. There are thousands of tribes who are in conflict with eachother. And the Bantu agriculturalists have expanded, brutally genociding other tribes along the way.

Africans are almost entirely NOT hunter gatherers by nature.



http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...majority+of+africans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk

The Hamites like Somalis and Tutsis (who can be categorised as Caucasian) are even another race entirely from the bushmen who are also different to the the Bantu (who are negroes with the characteristic "muzzle").

hmm, interesting article. i read Guns, Germs and Steel as well as Collapse by Diamond. GGS was alright, didn't necessarily learn a whole lot since i was familiar with most of what he said from other sources. I didn't really like Collapse. i think the topic has been dealt with in a far superior manner by writers such as Joseph Tainter in his book The Collapse of Complex Societies. Diamond is way to reformist for my liking, exhibiting an optimism in the current system that i find delusional/non-desirable even if workable.

as for the article, i think it makes some good observations that should shed some much needed light for some people here who homogenize Africa and generally don't seem to be aware of or care about the dynamics between societies with different "modes of production." i think the author of the article shows some ambivalent tendencies towards the end. integration/"equality" for pygmies seems to be hinted at as desirable, as long as it isn't done in such a way that focuses too much on the past. but then the example of San land struggles with the system is given, lending credence to the idea that foragers are a separate culture who should not be asbsorbed by the assimilation machine. i have my doubts about the usage of the legal system for any meaningful change to occur in relation to "land rights" and things of such sort oriented towards autonomy. i am very familiar with how these things have worked historically and in the present in the united states in regards to indigenous peoples. i think John Trudell, former spokesperson for the American Indian Movement summed it about as well as one can.

"Townsend: You mentioned to face the world that's coming. There is a lot of proposed legislation right now that really erodes sovereignty. It seems as if there is a conservative movement within governments all across the country, that there is not a | better recognition of tribal sovereignty and treaty issues, but it seems as if things are moving backwards.

Trudell: Yes. Our enemy here, if one looks at it historically, the only time that they have ever given anything to us or back to us, was so that they could take it away later. It was to meet a political need at a certain time. 'The Indians are raising hell and they got a lot of public support. So here, we'll pass this legislation, say we're going to make some concessions to them.'

But then 20 years later, they've already got it figured out how they're going to take it away. It's not just with Native people. Look at the citizens of America. We have to understand that. We will gain nothing from this way of life, this system of America. Anything that even | represents "right" that they're going to extend to us, is only so that they can take it away later, because they had to make a concession to us at this time. But, as soon as they are in a position that they no longer have to make that concession, then they will take it away. That has been their history.

That's how our land bases have shrunk.

Look at history. Take the first treaty ever | signed, and all this land people retained, but somewhere later a court decision said, 'no, you can take it away.'

And the Indians get too angry, so another court decision says, 'you can only take this much.' So the Indians get a piece. Then 20 years later or 50 years later, a new court decision says, 'no, you can take it all now.'

That's our history. It should not be surprising to us at all. This is what is going to be our historical experience.

It's been happening to us for so long now, it should almost be a part of our intuition, or genetic. (laughs)

And to me, in reality, these are cannibals. They want to eat our land, our lives, they want to eat our future. That's as cannibalistic as it can possibly get. But it has a form, government, nationhood, or whatever it calls itself,, but in the end, it's a bunch of cannibals."

:worship: :lol:
 
Sorry I have to confess that I didn't read the replies :erk:
But I read the word homogeneity and I thought: I have to talk :rofl:
I think homgeneity it's the worst thing can happend to humanity. Imagine a world were we have all the same fisical characteristic, the same ideas and ideologies and the same costums.... Now imagine there was homogeneity since the begining of our times... would you travel to another country to enjoy their monuments?? Would you enjoy music? Literature??

Diversity it's the best thing can happen! I know there are problems with the coesxistance related with diversity (of course!!) but If we are all the "same"... Where is the fun of life??? Just wondering...

Read my reply in the Immigration thread showing that diversity is conclusively proven to cause a destruction of trust, altruism and cause perpetual competition and violent crime.

You can enjoy other cultures by visiting them. No problem with that! We can enjoy different fashions and tastes while still being sufficiently homogenous not to be trying to stand on eachother and rip eachother off!
 
I will read it in a minute ;)

Diversity is not the problem the problem is the lack of education and the manipulation of the information!

1)I believe you rather missed the point. No one here is advocating global or universal homogeneity - only an alternative to compulsive, large scale integration, within the same Nations.

2) Okay, I'll take the bait...do tell, what "education" is lacking in those of us who, after much reflection, investigation and reasoned evaluation, still fail to see the intrinsic wonders of this "Diversity?" And indeed, what information is being manipulated and how so, that you see as an apparent problem?
 
1) Well I said sorry cuz I didn't read the rest of the threads :oops: Sorry again for it! I only was talking aboout a general homogeneity

2) Can you explain me which kind of homogeneity you talk please? I think we are talking bout different views. I will answer then to the quest ;)

No need to apologize - given the language issues, some misunderstanding is inevitable. Unfortunately, on a board such as this, dedicated to more in-depth thoughts, ideas and discussions, you are at a distinct disadvantage, language-wise.
Nevertheless...

Speaking for myself, the homogeneity being discussed is on the National level and below(say, state or even city). Simply put, the more similar the people(racially/ethnically/culturally)within a given Nation, state, or city the more stable and harmonious the collective. The more "Diversity" the more disagreement, resentment, distrust, and social unrest. It is natural for the various groups to vie for position in the social hierarchy and this will be endlessly complicated by the varying levels of capability and compatibility among groups, etc., to say nothing of the fact that the "host" peoples will almost certainly always maintain some advantages as the originators of the nation in the first place.(at least until they are displaced by mass-immigration, or low birth-rates, etc)

Obviously, not a few people disagree with this assessment and insist that a multi-cultural/multi-racial society is just as good - even better than that which I prefer. However, I argue that the alleged "benefits" of this Diversity(which typically go unstated beyond some nonsense about ethnic food, music and perhaps some ambiguous references to advantages in the so-called "global-economy" or the like). I maintain that "benefits" such as these pale in comparison to the risks and potential for social chaos large-scale Diversity(again depending upon the "mix")will bring.(nevermind the incredible cost to taxpayers as many of today's "immigrant" and minority populations receive all manner of "social-services" from hospitalization/healthcare to housing assistance, general welfare to translators, food-stamps, etc. etc.)

This has nothing to do with "Hate" or some racial superiority complex. I would expect other races or ethnicities to feel and act the same way, jealously guarding their unique qualities as a distinct people. Curiously, when peoples other than Caucasians express preferences along those lines it is considered healthy and desirable, according to our bizarrely hypocritical modern orthodoxy on race, etc.

Sorry if that is still confusing. It is admittedly oversimplified, but I tried to keep it as straight-forward as I could and still have it make any sense!
 
I think homgeneity it's the worst thing can happend to humanity. Imagine a world were we have all the same fisical characteristic, the same ideas and ideologies and the same costums.... Now imagine there was homogeneity since the begining of our times... would you travel to another country to enjoy their monuments?? Would you enjoy music? Literature?

"Homogenous" does not mean "clones" in a human context. Give me a break. You're like those people who suppose that any ethnically contiguous population is inbred ;(