Naturen

[Nordabrand]

Tjena!

Jag blev nyfiken på en sak. Jag har lyssnat på Vintersorg i alla mina år och alltid uppskattat och dragit mig till hans respekt och vördnad för naturen, vare sig det är kosmos eller träden som fäller sina löv om hösten.

Själv sade jag ifrån mig kristendom som 15-åring då det helt enkelt inte var något som jag trodde på. Gudar och karaktärer som styr och ställer i världen är inte heller något som jag tror på. Jag är civilingenjör och har läst extremt mycket naturvetenskap.

All denna naturvetenskap till trots...så varje gång jag ger mig ut på fjället eller i skogen så är det något som jag inte kan sätta fingret på. Måhända det är endorfiner från att jag jobbat hårt och känslan av att ha åstadkommit något, men naturen har alltid varit snäppet "helig" för mig.

Hur många på forumet är det som är trogna kristna och finns det några fler som håller naturen högt? Jag kan inte sätta fingret på det...men det känns som att det är något mer än bara träd och löv i den mäktiga natur som är Sverige.

Whaddaya say?

 

[Windvang]

Well, we're used to speak English here...

 

[lefay82]

yes, a lot of people here are from outside sweden so will not understand what you are asking.
i know a little bit of swedish so i've understood what you are asking, but i cannot help you.
i'm born christian because i live in a christian land, but i've never believed in anything beyond everything, or at least nothing called god.
i think nature has a sort of sanctity that strictly belongs to its own existence, there's no one who pulls the strings of the whole natural world.
i believe in something more immanent, something that is inside the natural things. i should say my idea is quite near to old nordic paganism, if you're swedish you will surely know of what i am speaking about ( woods, stones and waterfalls were considere sacred in the viking era, and also after, when the gods fell down from the skies, those place were considered the house of all "de underjordiska" and all those oknytten/väsen/di små/call-it-how-you-want who live in the nordic foklore)


this is a phrase from agalloch's song "in the shadows of our pale companion" which i think esplains good this point of view:

Here at the edge of this world
Here I gaze at a pantheon of oak, a citadel of stone
If this grand panorama before me is what you call God. . .
Then God is not dead

 

[Draugen]

To deep of a question for me, but I also have some lyrics that explains kind of what I feel.

Vem styr symmetrin?
Vad skapar den sideriska alkemin?
Vem styr symmetrin?
Vem är den dunkla arkitekten i periferin?

 

[Windvang]

Draugen@ did you read Angels & Demons from Dan Brown? I finished the book short time ago and I have to say it gives me some stuff to think about. One of the questions during reading the book was 'Vem styr summetrin?' In the book one of the scientists is dealing with this subject.

On topic: I do have the feeling that there must be a kind of architect. How to explain the brilliant camouflage of some animals. I can't imagine that this matter exists without a kind of intelligence power behind it.

 

[lefay82]

On topic: I do have the feeling that there must be a kind of architect. How to explain the brilliant camouflage of some animals. I can't imagine that this matter exists without a kind of intelligence power behind it.

it is called evolution.
some camouflages are used to attract beings of the opposite sex (those secundary sex characteristics like peakock's feathers or stag's horns) or to scare other animals (like some butterfly's wings that looks like eyes of a bigger animal), or to mimic with the surroundings (like chameleons do) or to reach some food's sources, or everything else connected with survival...
if there was a god behind this he would have done everything perfect from the beginning, but some species have reach this "perfection" after millenniums of evolution...

 

[Novalis]

Yes, there is a hidden force behind everything, Nature is one big organism. For example, trees have consciousness but on different frequency then ours, so we can't be aware of it with our everyday life awareness. Evolution is amazing, but there is a driving force behind - call it a god or gods, universal architect or logos, doesn't matter, they are only mental pictures that we need to make in order to percieve things that are higher in this endless spiral proccess.

 

[lefay82]

Yes, there is a hidden force behind everything, Nature is one big organism. For example, trees have consciousness but on different frequency then ours, so we can't be aware of it with our everyday life awareness. Evolution is amazing, but there is a driving force behind - call it a god or gods, universal architect or logos, doesn't matter, they are only mental pictures that we need to make in order to percieve things that are higher in this endless spiral proccess.

if we must talk about a superior intelligence i prefer you to call it universal architect. the word god brings too many implications with it, like thousand of people who does stupid things in the name of this god, just choose a random name between jesus, allah, jahveh, and so on

 

[Novalis]

Yes, i agree with that. Humans proved so many times that they are not ready to understand something that is beyond their mind, to make an effort to understand it. Lack of tolerance in modern religions is a huge problem. Before the rise of monotheistic religions there was a never war in the name of something spiritual. No one made war in name of Odin, for example - to spread his faith to other people with sword. Or any other pagan religion. Only monotheists did it, with their simple and vulgar concept of one god and only truth. Nothing is so black and white. Human cannot found universal architect directly, he needs to be on certain path - philosophical or religious, anything that will raise his mind above this earth plane.. like shamans in their trances when they journey through Tree of Life, or following the path or Runes - point is attaching to the all connecting energy/light that flow through all, ther essence withing Ygdrassil, for example.

But, sorry for off topic. I just saw last 2 posts, not so sure what topic is about?

 

[lefay82]

Yes, i agree with that. Humans proved so many times that they are not ready to understand something that is beyond their mind, to make an effort to understand it. Lack of tolerance in modern religions is a huge problem. Before the rise of monotheistic religions there was a never war in the name of something spiritual. No one made war in name of Odin, for example - to spread his faith to other people with sword. Or any other pagan religion. Only monotheists did it, with their simple and vulgar concept of one god and only truth. Nothing is so black and white. Human cannot found universal architect directly, he needs to be on certain path - philosophical or religious, anything that will raise his mind above this earth plane.. like shamans in their trances when they journey through Tree of Life, or following the path or Runes - point is attaching to the all connecting energy/light that flow through all, ther essence withing Ygdrassil, for example.

But, sorry for off topic. I just saw last 2 posts, not so sure what topic is about?

we were speaking about what's behind the majesty and beauty of nature, so you're not OT. nordabrand asked if there's some true christian in here that thinks there's more behind what we call trees and leaves, something higher he means.

if i've ended to hate religion is because i live in a very religious state. i see everyday a lot of bullshits, lies and hypocrisy.
the 7th paragraph of our constitution says that church and state must be indipendent and sovereign each one in his state. but this doesn't happen.
church wants to nose into everything.

 

[Nordabrand]

Howdy,

Sorry I wrote it in swedish...I guess it slipped my mind that a lot of fans are in fact not swedish! So I will translate what I wrote:

"Hello!

I'm curious about something. I've listened to Vintersorg for all my years and have always appreciated and been drawn to his respect and humility towards nature, whether it be cosmos or the trees dropping their leaves in the autumn.

I myself distanced myself from christianity as a 15-year-old simply because it was not something I believed in. Gods and characters who govern and control the world are not something I believe in either. I have a master's degree in engineering specified on energy technology and have therefore studied a massive amount of natural science.

All this science to bow...every time I head out on the mountain or into the forest there is something I cannot put my finger on. Perhaps it is the endorfines kicking in after working hard, or simply the feeling accomplishing something, but nature has always been slightly "holy" to me.

How many on this forum are faithful christians and are there any more that regard nature very highly? I can't put my finger on it...but it feels like there is something more than just trees and leaves in this majestic nature which is Sweden.

Whaddaya say?"


When it comes to universal architects, gods, creators and intelligent design: From 6 years of natural science I cannot (not yet atleast, who knows what quantum science will unveil) accept the idea of a creator or an architect either for that matter. But I do feel like life somehow...bonds together. There's a mututal respect, understanding and connection to other living things, whether they be trees, bees, frogs or flowers. This sensation feels good.

Anyway, I am curious to find out what other people here think! Vintersorg strikes me as a very science-based man, but as I do not know him in person I can't know for sure. His songs have had great meaning to me atleast.

 

[Windvang]

When it comes to universal architects, gods, creators and intelligent design: From 6 years of natural science I cannot (not yet atleast, who knows what quantum science will unveil) accept the idea of a creator or an architect either for that matter. But I do feel like life somehow...bonds together. There's a mututal respect, understanding and connection to other living things, whether they be trees, bees, frogs or flowers. This sensation feels good.

And what did you make not accepting this idea?

 

[Nordabrand]

Hey again!

To reply to Windwang:

Well, science and esspecially physics...is beautiful in the sense that it follows a logic built of axioms manufactured through repeated experiments.

Science does not allow a creator, an architect if you will. Atleast not at present day; a lot of people simply argue that "Well because things seem to be so neatly built in this universe, it seems like someone gave it some thought and created it this way." But science explains time over time that there is a reason to creation and they call it chance. Given a room of buildingblocks, sooner or later if you wait billions of years long enough the one event needed to spawn a chain reaction of evolution will happen.

There are things science cannot explain yet though! The time before the big bang, or even the very first few microseconds of it are unknown territory. Dark matter is peculiar as well. There are certain things that cannot be explained BUT!

Throughout history...every mystery and every holy story that has brought enchantment upon believers and then been solved by science have turned out to be...not magic!

If quantum physics unveil a 5th and 6th dimension (depending on how you count time and vectors) and a creator within then I will spin on a dime.

Also...science gets so much trash for not being able to explain everything RIGHT NOW, but beliefs so easily wash everything away with "Oh it's above our heads and we can never understand it. It's magic" which is unfair. Science is a lot of hard work...that has proven itself relentlessly for thousands of years.