Official Off Topic Thread

[darkblade]

(Nor is it required in the least bit to explain our existence).

thati can agree with. but i do think, although not required or necessary, i find it an interesting idea. those things we can't explain. the feeling of wonder and awe. the love and energy in all life. that is my definiton of god. not some all powerful being in the sky who gives rules and sends his son, and shows us the way. there is no scientific explanation for true emotion and the causes beyond synapses. what makes these synaps fire? emotion. what created that emotion? our consciousness. god. whatever. i just think that for thsoe things that we can never explain, there is what i call god. the energy and power of wondeer and awe, and emotion, and creation.

1) Yes

hahaha glad to hear it. by my definition if the sun created life, i ask what created the sun?...what created that? and so on until there is no farther traceable source, and whatver is beyond that is god. all that is unexplained.

2) All it takes is an initial spark of life to create complex life forms. I don't quite understand what you meant by this though.

i'm just saying that if the sun created life elsewhere, maybe that's where we came from.

just know that i believe that "god" is never to be worshiped. i think worship of something you don't know or understand is very devisive and detrimental to the mind and society.

 

[noble savage]

thati can agree with. but i do think, although not required or necessary, i find it an interesting idea. those things we can't explain. the feeling of wonder and awe. the love and energy in all life. that is my definiton of god. not some all powerful being in the sky who gives rules and sends his son, and shows us the way. there is no scientific explanation for true emotion and the causes beyond synapses. what makes these synaps fire? emotion. what created that emotion? our consciousness. god. whatever. i just think that for thsoe things that we can never explain, there is what i call god. the energy and power of wondeer and awe, and emotion, and creation.

These are definitely interesting questions and do require explanation. I'm sure in time people will be able to answer most of these questions. I once read a quote of a Greek philosopher (There are too many, I forgot the name) who said people will never understand why it rains and thunders so it can only be settled by invoking a god.


hahaha glad to hear it. by my definition if the sun created life, i ask what created the sun?...what created that? and so on until there is no farther traceable source, and whatver is beyond that is god. all that is unexplained.

Believe it or not, matter is created out of nothing due to a decaying of space. It's something like one atom created every few meters, every day. It doesn't sound like much but it can all add up. All it takes is around a pound of matter under singularity to cause a big bang.


i'm just saying that if the sun created life elsewhere, maybe that's where we came from.

That is what I meant initially when I said the sun has been responsible for forming organic chains of protein. It could happen elsewhere.

just know that i believe that "god" is never to be worshiped. i think worship of something you don't know or understand is very devisive and detrimental to the mind and society.

As has been shown (and still shown) throughout history.

Also, I just saw a commercial were a kid smoked weed and then proceeded to set his car on fire and burn his guitar on the grill. Hahahahahaha.

 

[Iced Dog]

the voyager 2 space probe, carries on it a golden LP. that's right. records in space.

Great, we send out a deep space probe with the following mission...to impress intergalactic music critics.

 

[darkblade]

Believe it or not, matter is created out of nothing due to a decaying of space. It's something like one atom created every few meters, every day. It doesn't sound like much but it can all add up. All it takes is around a pound of matter under singularity to cause a big bang.

where did the space come from, and how did it form matter? all i'm saying is that: if we follow all questions back to their start all we get is another question.

I once read a quote of a Greek philosopher (There are too many, I forgot the name) who said people will never understand why it rains and thunders so it can only be settled by invoking a god.

wow that's pretty cool stuff. i'll have to tell my brother that one. one of my favorite quotes was Ralph Waldo Emerson "the religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next." which rings true as we study what we call "mythology".

just know that i'm never saying that there is a god who acts or thinks or is even a proper noun. nothing to be invoked. just an energy that sparked us. if you believ that matter just was, and that there was a big bang, then i say god didtn't cause the big bang, god IS the big bang. god is just what i call the source or beginning of all being.

Also, I just saw a commercial were a kid smoked weed and then proceeded to set his car on fire and burn his guitar on the grill. Hahahahahaha.

hahah i think i saw this one. those commercials make me want to smoke pot. i never have and never will but, those comercials are just the worst.

 

[noble savage]

If you want to understand the most modern views of Physics of how our universe works I highly recommend:

The Fabric of the Cosmos (And if you like that The Elegant Universe) by Brian Greene.

Parallel Worlds by Michio Kaku.

They're very interesting books written about the real possibility of extra dimensions, string theory, multiverse and the big bang etc etc.

These guys are way smarter than I'll ever be, so it's best to hear it straight from them.

 

[HackerX]

The furthest human-built *anything* in the universe - the voyager 2 space probe, carries on it a golden LP. that's right. records in space. it's leaving our solar system, which is amazing because we will finally see if we are correct about the mechanics of solar wind and magnetic shields.

What I want to know is, how are the RIAA going to charge royalties on that?!

 

[Iced Dog]

Oh, those fuckers will find a way!

 

[SilentRealm]

What I want to know is, how are the RIAA going to charge royalties on that?!

 

[Meedleyx10]

I just saw the most horrible sight I've ever seen...

So I heard some hustle and bustle in the hallway outside of my apartment, which usually means the couple across the hall are beating the shit out of each other and the walls again (I think I've mentioned the drugged out assholes on here before). So I looked out the peep-hole to see the guy on his knees trying to find something on the floor while his woman, who was clearly drugged-up, drunk, and probably only half conscious, was standing there in nothing but a t-shirt trying to get into their apartment. I seriously almost vomiteduke:. Words cannot describe how horrible of a sight that was....

Funny how after at least a dozen complaints from tenants (at least 4 of which were from me), several clear violations of the lease agreement/building code (that management has acknowledged that they are aware of), and 3 incidents with the cops management still wont do anything about these people. Anybody know enough about renting laws that could help me find some way to spin this that would allow me to get out of my lease legally and get the hell out of this crack house?

 

[Kenneth R.]

Well, what I gave was an observable mechanism by which life can form. It has been documented. God, and the mechanisms by which it supposedly works, has never been documented or observed (Nor is it required in the least bit to explain our existence). How does what we see show no distinction between what we cannot? That really doesn't make sense.

Actually, you're relying on scientific instruments to bring you information that you cannot readily observe personally. You accept this evidence as valid for posing hypotheses. But, you discount evidence others present for their case for the hypothesis "god exists". It's not that evidence doesn't exist. You just aren't permitting it.

I then present this scenario: As a fellow science-minded person, we can trace the history of the universe through the time-lens of the stars. We can do this up until the very moment it was created. Created from what? Did matter and energy poof into being from nothing at all? Did they come from a previous universe that collapsed? If that is the case, where did that one come from? I attest that there must be an origin of some kind, either matter collapsed downward from a higher dimension, or was forced upward from a lower one. Our universal laws of thermodynamics prohibit something coming from nothing, so unless something came from somewhere else, where the laws do not apply, you'd be hardpressed to explain why we have a universe at all. Yes I am aware that the laws were modified during the early stages, yet still energy and matter cannot poof into being. Is it not possible that the concept of 'god', and omnipresent, omniabsent, omniscient and omnipotent being, resides in a higher universe than our own, and thus by default could have created or sculpted this one to his suiting? Just a thought. There are many other possibilities.

Anyway, people can and do present evidence for the existence of god. Personal evidence, scientific evidence, philosophical evidence. When looking at the concept of alien life, we find that the same sorts of evidence are presented. Encounters with the elusive being, scientific tidbits, and philosophical musings. The distinction you draw is in your mind.

 

[noble savage]

Actually, you're relying on scientific instruments to bring you information that you cannot readily observe personally. You accept this evidence as valid for posing hypotheses. But, you discount evidence others present for their case for the hypothesis "god exists". It's not that evidence doesn't exist. You just aren't permitting it.

I then present this scenario: As a fellow science-minded person, we can trace the history of the universe through the time-lens of the stars. We can do this up until the very moment it was created. Created from what? Did matter and energy poof into being from nothing at all? Did they come from a previous universe that collapsed? If that is the case, where did that one come from? I attest that there must be an origin of some kind, either matter collapsed downward from a higher dimension, or was forced upward from a lower one. Our universal laws of thermodynamics prohibit something coming from nothing, so unless something came from somewhere else, where the laws do not apply, you'd be hardpressed to explain why we have a universe at all. Yes I am aware that the laws were modified during the early stages, yet still energy and matter cannot poof into being. Is it not possible that the concept of 'god', and omnipresent, omniabsent, omniscient and omnipotent being, resides in a higher universe than our own, and thus by default could have created or sculpted this one to his suiting? Just a thought. There are many other possibilities.

Anyway, people can and do present evidence for the existence of god. Personal evidence, scientific evidence, philosophical evidence. When looking at the concept of alien life, we find that the same sorts of evidence are presented. Encounters with the elusive being, scientific tidbits, and philosophical musings. The distinction you draw is in your mind.

Fair enough. It is a debate that could rage on forever. However, if we happen to find string theory true in the coming weeks the ekpyrotic scenario would now be the most viable alternative to the Big Bang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic

But you could still make a case for an infinite regress in the case of god. What created god? What can create omniscience and omnipotents? etc etc

Like I said before, to think that a being of higher intelligence, who people want to take responsibility for all of the cosmic events, watches over us helping those who need help and ignoring those with the most need, doesn't add up to me. It would be one thing if this god occasionally showed up in front of (sane) people. Nothing of the sort suggests that it has ever happen. Except on a grilled cheese. If we collected fossils and saw that their really is proof of a higher intelligence working on life that would be one thing but the situation is another.

I agree though, it's all in whatever conclusion people draw for themselves.

 

[noble savage]

I just saw the most horrible sight I've ever seen...

So I heard some hustle and bustle in the hallway outside of my apartment, which usually means the couple across the hall are beating the shit out of each other and the walls again (I think I've mentioned the drugged out assholes on here before). So I looked out the peep-hole to see the guy on his knees trying to find something on the floor while his woman, who was clearly drugged-up, drunk, and probably only half conscious, was standing there in nothing but a t-shirt trying to get into their apartment. I seriously almost vomiteduke:. Words cannot describe how horrible of a sight that was....

Funny how after at least a dozen complaints from tenants (at least 4 of which were from me), several clear violations of the lease agreement/building code (that management has acknowledged that they are aware of), and 3 incidents with the cops management still wont do anything about these people. Anybody know enough about renting laws that could help me find some way to spin this that would allow me to get out of my lease legally and get the hell out of this crack house?

Call the FBI and say they are terrorists. That still leaves the problem of you being there though..

 

[Kenneth R.]

If we accept the higher universe case, then God is finite there, but as it is a higher realm, finite dimensions in that universe translate to infinite dimensions here. Laplace transform. You have a mapping from one mathematical set to another, in which a select portion (call it the basis vector) maps to the entire second set. Finite to infinite. So perhaps something did create God. But as far as we are concerned, that entity either doesn't care about our universe, doesn't exist, or is for some mechanism unable to have influence here. It's far more difficult to explain the existence of any matter at all without God. If indeed God is a human invention, then he was invented to explain our inability to decipher this dilemma.

In short, don't rule him/her/it/they out just yet.

 

[noble savage]

If we accept the higher universe case, then God is finite there, but as it is a higher realm, finite dimensions in that universe translate to infinite dimensions here. Laplace transform. You have a mapping from one mathematical set to another, in which a select portion (call it the basis vector) maps to the entire second set. Finite to infinite. So perhaps something did create God. But as far as we are concerned, that entity either doesn't care about our universe, doesn't exist, or is for some mechanism unable to have influence here. It's far more difficult to explain the existence of any matter at all without God. If indeed God is a human invention, then he was invented to explain our inability to decipher this dilemma.

In short, don't rule him/her/it/they out just yet.

Exactly, that's why I said I'm still open to the idea. I just feel at this point in time, when our collective understanding of the universe basically equates to a number close to zero with only hypothesis' to go on, that it is too early to credit a higher form of intelligence for our existence. I never said it cannot be there but, the explanations and attributes people have given "it" so far do nothing to explain "it". Only question after question are posed, with no answers being close in sight.

Ken, are you a math major?

 

[Kenneth R.]

BS Electrical Engineering.

I think it's too early to rule on the alien issue as well. So again I ask, why credit one and not the other? At this point, both are ideas for which there is evidence, but no conclusive proof. People should come to their own understandings on the issues. I think the problem for atheists shouldn't be that there isn't enough evidence for God to exist, but that the evidence of his existence that they are aware of is not of the type that will convince them. Different people believe in different things for different reasons. There can never be absolute proof of anything since we live in a time-dynamic universe.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Ken, your argument today is quite profound, and I tip my hat to you on the succinctness of your presentation.

Cheers,

 

[schenkadere]

BS Electrical Engineering.

I think it's too early to rule on the alien issue as well. So again I ask, why credit one and not the other? At this point, both are ideas for which there is evidence, but no conclusive proof. People should come to their own understandings on the issues. I think the problem for atheists shouldn't be that there isn't enough evidence for God to exist, but that the evidence of his existence that they are aware of is not of the type that will convince them. Different people believe in different things for different reasons. There can never be absolute proof of anything since we live in a time-dynamic universe.

Well stated.

So enters the concept of faith...belief without the need of proof or explanation.

I admire those who can truly embrace faith. To me, it almost goes beyond the basic human need to know. It must be a freeing release to be of strong faith...in any respect.

 

[noble savage]

Ken, your argument today is quite profound, and I tip my hat to you on the succinctness of your presentation.

Cheers,

It's quite nice to have a civilized discussion about this instead of a "...no fuck you" type of deal.

Ken, again good points. If you find evidence that justifies your belief I'm all for it. We have all reached conclusions that others don't find satisfying. Again my only qualm about religious discourse is that which lies of the extreme end. I think we already went through that so I won't elaborate.

 

[clover]

I just saw the most horrible sight I've ever seen...

So I heard some hustle and bustle in the hallway outside of my apartment, which usually means the couple across the hall are beating the shit out of each other and the walls again (I think I've mentioned the drugged out assholes on here before). So I looked out the peep-hole to see the guy on his knees trying to find something on the floor while his woman, who was clearly drugged-up, drunk, and probably only half conscious, was standing there in nothing but a t-shirt trying to get into their apartment. I seriously almost vomiteduke:. Words cannot describe how horrible of a sight that was....

Funny how after at least a dozen complaints from tenants (at least 4 of which were from me), several clear violations of the lease agreement/building code (that management has acknowledged that they are aware of), and 3 incidents with the cops management still wont do anything about these people. Anybody know enough about renting laws that could help me find some way to spin this that would allow me to get out of my lease legally and get the hell out of this crack house?

Do you have such a thing as a residential tenancies tribunal, or similar, there? Thats who you need to talk to. Failing that, call a solicitor or three who advertises first consult free, and run your situation past them.

 

[schenkadere]

I just saw the most horrible sight I've ever seen...

So I heard some hustle and bustle in the hallway outside of my apartment, which usually means the couple across the hall are beating the shit out of each other and the walls again (I think I've mentioned the drugged out assholes on here before). So I looked out the peep-hole to see the guy on his knees trying to find something on the floor while his woman, who was clearly drugged-up, drunk, and probably only half conscious, was standing there in nothing but a t-shirt trying to get into their apartment. I seriously almost vomiteduke:. Words cannot describe how horrible of a sight that was....

Funny how after at least a dozen complaints from tenants (at least 4 of which were from me), several clear violations of the lease agreement/building code (that management has acknowledged that they are aware of), and 3 incidents with the cops management still wont do anything about these people. Anybody know enough about renting laws that could help me find some way to spin this that would allow me to get out of my lease legally and get the hell out of this crack house?

I would imagine any lawyer, public or private, would easily make that happen considering your situation. Go for a free consultation.