Official Off Topic Thread

[Phanto]

Wish I was old and a little sentimental.

... And now I'm listening to it.

 

[Burnout]

According the the popular, non parent (havent been there) vote it doesnt matter what a kid watches or is exposed too

Or people could actually make an effort to monitor what their kids are watching and address issues when raising their kids instead of blaming the media and expecting the government to use regulation to help them parent.

... And now I'm listening to it.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Wow, I have a lot of reading to catch up on here. But I thought I'd interject my comment all the same.

I agree with Zach's statement that parents are more to blame here, but I disagree with the acquittal of TV/movies in the scenario. I'll explain that in a bit. But, with the parents, what we have seen over the generations is a lessening of parenting and a growth of self-fulfillment. Kids in Generation X were left to grow up by themselves while their Silent parents were off experiencing their sexual revolutions or both parents were in the work place. Kids had more opportunity to get into trouble and "do things they weren't supposed to" as a result. Boomers then raised their children on the opposite end of the spectrum, focusing their time and attentions to the development of the children, yet with the belief that it is ok for kids to experience life through their own eyes. Both scenarios tend to lead to more "trouble" for minors as both sets of generations are not properly guided during adolescence. GenX saw a steep incline in youth-involved crime, and the Millenials are more apt to be "spoiled" for lack of a better word.

The effect from TV is a numbing of societal attitudes and morals. Viewers are subjected to images on TV that tend to desensitize the viewers and/or the society to topics/actions that were once considered taboo. Couple the desensitizing from TV with poor parenting and we have more extremes being pushed by our children.

I gotta go take a vicious Malmsteen...

 

[DoomsdayZach]

I think Mark pretty much summed up the whole argument pretty well. Obviously it's not 100% on the parents, but the point i was making is kids will find ways to be exposed to all kinds of things no matter how sheltered they are. It almost makes more sense to arm kids with the knowledge of how to deal with things than keep it hush hush. I didn't mean to insinuate that media had no impact whatsoever, but i don't think it's nearly the devil that some people make it out to be.

I mean, here's another example. Teaching only abstinence in school as opposed to giving kids knowledge on how to prevent STD's and unwanted pregnancies has statistically shown an increase in both pregnancies and sexy diseases. Kids will do shit no matter what, so the best protection is not keeping information from them but rather sharing info. I remember how my parents handled the alcohol discussion when i was a kid. They always told me they didn't want me drinking as a teen, but if i did then not to do anything to put myself in danger because they'd rather me be safe and have them be a bit angry with me than have me be in serious trouble or injury. Sure, they told me not to, but they also understood that they can tell me all they want, someday i was going to be curious and try it out.

This is my generation we're talking about, so I know what kinds of kids turned out to be shitheads and which ones turned out to be decent. parental involvement is the one factor that is 99% constant in the ones who turned out alright and absent in the fuck-ups. It has far more influence than programs kids watched when they were younger (some didn't have any exposure to bad things as kids and became obsessed with violence or sex or whatever once they had the ability and had no instilled psychological mechanism to handle what they were taking in) or social/economic status or even grades.

So yeah, despite the best parenting in the world, kids can still grow up to be fuckers. I still don't think that tv or movies have a drastic impact on kids so long as from a young age the differentiation between fantasy and reality are made.

Semi-side note: I wonder what's more damaging to a kid: A super violent bloody movie that's over the top and completely fantastic or a documentary about war that shows that grim reality?

Best of luck on the malmsteen!

 

[ABQShredHead]

Indeed, Zach, it was refreshing. And parents hold the key. Kids cannot, no matter how much we may believe in their abilities, raise theirselves. Parents must be present to define boundaries and guide them through their formative years.

 

[razoredge]

Yeah OK guys, your getting closer so not to make light of anything you have said. You still missed a few things.

But before I get to those let me say, understand that I have always thought horror and even more so gore were stupid, acting out to get attention or shock people is stupid... that is me, I never found appeal in any of it. I came from the generation that flocked to Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, spawned the Howard Sterns of the world, punk rock and other such bullshit but I did not flock and I was not impressed. That is me, I understand war quite well, struggled to hold my jaw closed during the news from Vietnam, the Chicago convention, the Kent state fiasco, the Kennedy and MLK assassinations, I witnessed all that stuff on the days it happened, so I find no fucking humor in making fucking humor or entertainment out of bullshit... that is just me, Im not religious, I'm far from prude and real far from wimpy. I know why some strong arm things are done and it aint to be cool and it aint to be funny and it aint to entertain, nor is it for the joy of being cruel.

Why do we have two parents working these past 3-4 decades ? Why do many employers demand so much attention from their workforce ? This is gonna be ALL the parents fault ? Dont point no fingers elsewere... especially the government for pressing this kind of life style, society in place ? Naw... they had nothing to do with it.... yarite ! Go dang parents are real fuckers.

I wont get into the pregancy, sex, booze and drug thing for one because I wasnt talking about that and also because I have already been all over that here in the past. Nothing new about Jack and Diane doing the wild thing. I will say I would not be surprised to find that the ultimate goal of current liberation cartoonists to have full blown sex in their little skits too. Its all about pushing the envelope... IS IT NOT ? Deny, deny, deny but I know that is what its all about...."oh yeah!, this is so cool, it will shock the world and we will be so important for doing it" Sorry but anyone that thinks that train of thought is not pathetic but being concerned about it is... is pathetic.

Parents must set boundries ? OK yeah, now what are those boundries ? On one hand you wanna say go for it TV/hollywood, music industry, make all the shows you want of kids lipping back and forth at each other, movies and video games of mass murder, music with bad attitude... but parents should monitor it and keep their children away... or was that limit it to say... an hour a day ? WTF ? Is it my weak mind or is all that a contradiction ? Are you saying this stuff is good or bad ? has no influence or has an influence ? Is positive or negitive ? What is running through the mind of those that create this stuff to sell to kids and teens ? This will be GRRREAT for society ? OR this will be GRRREAT for my wallet ? OR this will make me soooo cool ?

Sure many can differenciate, but can everyone ? If so why all these violent and disrespectful issues in recent decades ? Cause Mommy and Daddy werent home ? Get a friggin grip ! Or is it because Mommy and Daddy werent home to keep me away from it ? When is Mommy and Daddy supposed to do all this monitoring, self editing and censoring... between 6 and 9 at night, as if theres nothing else that needs to be done, let alone chill out ? Im not making excuses, I did mine, it was simple, "we aint watching that kind of garbage around this house" but guess what other kids still did and guess what mines exposed to them, bad parent again ? Why is it all out there to begin with, what is the point ? I understand some find it entertaining, what if it wasnt there, entertainment couldnt be found in something else, something with positive energy ?

Naw fuck that, its easier to blame it on..... Parents. I for one am glad my parents werent put to that much of a test, we were trying enough with our long hair, drug culture... and that damn Alice Cooper Killer poster... that went right straight into the garbage.... Dad! .... I miss that guy and am greatful for him being such a stern prick about certain things, it instilled strong values, little did he know it would be unpopular to have them in less than 20 years.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Yeah OK guys, your getting closer so not to make light of anything you have said. You still missed a few things.

But before I get to those let me say, understand that I have always thought horror and even more so gore were stupid, acting out to get attention or shock people is stupid... that is me, I never found appeal in any of it. I came from the generation that flocked to Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, spawned the Howard Sterns of the world, punk rock and other such bullshit but I did not flock and I was not impressed. That is me, I understand war quite well, struggled to hold my jaw closed during the news from Vietnam, the Chicago convention, the Kent state fiasco, the Kennedy and MLK assassinations, I witnessed all that stuff on the days it happened, so I find no fucking humor in making fucking humor or entertainment out of bullshit... that is just me, Im not religious, I'm far from prude and real far from wimpy. I know why some strong arm things are done and it aint to be cool and it aint to be funny and it aint to entertain, nor is it for the joy of being cruel.

Why do we have two parents working these past 3-4 decades ? Why do many employers demand so much attention from their workforce ? This is gonna be ALL the parents fault ? Dont point no fingers elsewere... especially the government for pressing this kind of life style, society in place ? Naw... they had nothing to do with it.... yarite ! Go dang parents are real fuckers.

If this is the life that the parents choose to have (a working, career driven life) then it's part of their responsibility right? Most people don't "accidentally" get jobs that take them out of the house for a majority of the day.

I was lucky, i had a stay-at-home mom who was always around, and that rocked. She chose to do that and i'm greatful for it, but by no means is that a necessity for a good upbringing.

I wont get into the pregancy, sex, booze and drug thing for one because I wasnt talking about that and also because I have already been all over that here in the past. Nothing new about Jack and Diane doing the wild thing. I will say I would not be surprised to find that the ultimate goal of current liberation cartoonists to have full blown sex in their little skits too. Its all about pushing the envelope... IS IT NOT ? Deny, deny, deny but I know that is what its all about...."oh yeah!, this is so cool, it will shock the world and we will be so important for doing it" Sorry but anyone that thinks that train of thought is not pathetic but being concerned about it is... is pathetic.

Sure, pushing the envelope is a right that entertainers have and society decides if it's acceptable or not for people (including children) to see. Is it simply by mistake that south park is on at 10pm, well past most kids bedtimes? Most controversial programming is not going to be on during Nick Jr (or whatever they have now).

Parents must set boundries ? OK yeah, now what are those boundries ? On one hand you wanna say go for it TV/hollywood, music industry, make all the shows you want of kids lipping back and forth at each other, movies and video games of mass murder, music with bad attitude... but parents should monitor it and keep their children away... or was that limit it to say... an hour a day ? WTF ? Is it my weak mind or is all that a contradiction ? Are you saying this stuff is good or bad ? has no influence or has an influence ? Is positive or negitive ? What is running through the mind of those that create this stuff to sell to kids and teens ? This will be GRRREAT for society ? OR this will be GRRREAT for my wallet ? OR this will make me soooo cool ?

Ok, i'm going to use a lot of simpsons references because that was the big society-destroying show back when i was a kid. I remember for years people going "Oh my god, bart is so horrible and is going to destroy the youth of today!" Well, here we go...

Boundaries are up to the parent... that's the whole point of the discussion.
And you're right in a way that nothing is black or white, nothing is 100% blame parents or media. The point is to find a balance though, and for parents to be available and willing to talk to their kids. And anyone who see's a kid lipping off is missing the big picture. Bart Simpson was always a rebel, smart mouth kid who lipped off to his dad. Fine, there was a bit of glorification, but it gets deeper than that. Examples:

In the episode "Kamp Krusty", Bart defies grown-ups who run a summer camp. Ohh! So bad! But in context, he's tired of literally being treated like a slave and demands that the promises made be kept. Give the situation context and it is justified yes?

What about the episode "Marge be not proud" where Bart steals a video game and they don't punish him? They are just incredibly disappointed in him, then force him to become an adult until he realizes that his family is important to him and he wants them to be proud of him? In "Bart's inner child" they show how bad it'd be if everyone acted like Bart, and Bart realizes it sucks when everyone is rebellious because he has no identity anymore so he doesn't want to act up. This is one show, but it'd be easy to show how people doing fucked up stuff is wrong across the board. In south park, cartman is a little fucker and does messed up shit all the time, and NO ONE LIKES HIM. Family guy, Peter is repeatedly proven to be fucking stupid, so that sets the precedent for anything he says and should be taken accordingly.

The point is simply that without context and understanding, yes, i'm sure media can be damaging to kids. That's why i've said over and over that parents need to talk to their kids, explain why some actions are ok in some situations but grossly inappropriate in others. Explain that while someone on tv says the jews are evil, that doesn't mean it's right and even further, that it's flat wrong because the person saying that (Cartman from south park in this case) has been characterized as a total racist, ignorant narcissist.

And buying G.I. Joe action figures and fighting with them never did any damage other than to my parents wallets. And for all the imaginative shit we did with some painted plastic figures, I'd say it's well worth it.

Sure many can differenciate, but can everyone ? If so why all these violent and disrespectful issues in recent decades ? Cause Mommy and Daddy werent home ? Get a friggin grip ! Or is it because Mommy and Daddy werent home to keep me away from it ? When is Mommy and Daddy supposed to do all this monitoring, self editing and censoring... between 6 and 9 at night, as if theres nothing else that needs to be done, let alone chill out ? Im not making excuses, I did mine, it was simple, "we aint watching that kind of garbage around this house" but guess what other kids still did and guess what mines exposed to them, bad parent again ? Why is it all out there to begin with, what is the point ? I understand some find it entertaining, what if it wasnt there, entertainment couldnt be found in something else, something with positive energy ?

But now we're getting into censorship. Again to reference the simpsons, there's the episode "Marge vs. Itchy and Scratchy" where marge finds a show offensive and gets it pulled off the air. She becomes the moral leader, but when people get all pissed because the statue of David is in springfield and kids will see his DICK (oh god!), Marge tries to explain that it's art and it should be seen by all. In the end, the show gets put on the air and she realizes that just because she personally doesn't like something doesn't mean it is right to stifle it. There are plenty of great, amazing pieces of art throughout history that depict nudity, violence, hatred and anger and that is an INCREDIBLY positive outlet for that. I play metal instead of beating people up, something that my parents fully support and encourage, and have since i first showed an interest in music.

Why is this stuff on the air? Because i want to see it. People like me want to see it, and there is money to be made off of that fact. That doesn't mean that because I have the right to access it that kids should see it. And WHEN they do, it is the parent's responsibility to talk to them and put it in context... i can't stress that enough.

And i'm sure you're a lot like me in that my parents didn't rely on a box or the internet to bring me up. I got to play video games, play on the computer, and watch tv. I also had to go play outside with my friends, practice music, play sports, shit that kept me active.

Naw fuck that, its easier to blame it on..... Parents. I for one am glad my parents werent put to that much of a test, we were trying enough with our long hair, drug culture... and that damn Alice Cooper Killer poster... that went right straight into the garbage.... Dad! .... I miss that guy and am greatful for him being such a stern prick about certain things, it instilled strong values, little did he know it would be unpopular to have them in less than 20 years.

When i go to the grocery store and see a parent not keeping track of their kids, letting them bitch and moan at Target how they want a toy and instead of saying "no", they let the kid wear them down and finally cave. The kid learns something: Crying is the answer to get what you want! Yes, i think the blame for this lies squarely on the parent. I always got "That doesn't work with me, don't even try it. If you do, you'll get a spanking when you get home". Again, there's no rulebook for parenting and we're not talking about the "proper" way to raise kids. We're talking about raising kids period and that media is not responsible for the way a person turns out. If it is, it's because the parents were NOT responsible and allowed media to shape their child without giving any context to the actions they saw.

 

[razoredge]

Like I said earlier Zach, it all sound good but in reality is showing some negative force.

I know and agree about some shit parenting practices.

I had a girlfriend once way back that bribed her very poorly behaved young boys into pretending to be good... "if you behave I'll buy you icecream later", when I was a kid it was much less complicated, if we didnt behave.... the flyswatter was coming out, that was Moms thing, today she would be arrested, thrown in jail and we would have been "removed" from the home.... imagine how I would have turned out then....... Speaking of the flyswatter, I learned about asking twice for something in one simple manuver... when we got home from the store.... out came the fly swatter, damn that thing stung a cold hard reality, never asked twice again. No meant No around my house, not maybe... pretty good english no ? One day she didnt use it.... I came home from school, 4th grade I believe and tried out some new words I had learned on her.... her jaw hit the floor and she simply said "go to your room and wait till your father gets home"... that was bad enough sitting there wondering what was up with this wait for Dad, well I found out, taken swiftly to the living room, bare assed over his knee, 4 firm bare hand smacks to the ass and I knew I would NEVER try that stunt again. See that generation and all previous I would assume had no time for this talking and time out bullshit, we were taught to understand very simple principles swiftly and spent the rest of our time enjoying life without chaos and making others uncomfortable. It was also still legal to paddle kids when I was in grade school, I also got the paddle in 4th grade by the teacher, under my fathers permission... who was the elementary principle. We rarely pulled the same nonsence twice, if ever and thought twice about most stunts before we even tried them the first time.

Today parents are supposed to spend all this time "explaining" stuff to kids. Which is what I did but I found myself more than once saying "Im not looking for an arguement, Im telling you how things are going to be". Nothing pisses me off more than a parent sitting and argueing with their kids. We would never argue with our parents.... NEVER! at least after the first attempt. Unfortunantly thats what my daughters mother did, I dont know how many times I put an end to it with both of them getting a good piece of my mind. I used to call it "bitch practice"... lol (no offence girls, we boys did our dick practice in other ways... to great success)

So in the end... I dont like the stuff, have no use for it, see nothing good in it and stand firmly against it. This is NOT what the freedom of speach amendment was written into the constitution for. It was to make it so people could stand on the street corner and bring point to corruption or abuse or injustice in government and not be hauled off to the dungeon and put in the rack. But we dont use it for that, we let all that go and go, snowball into what its become and focus on how to use our mouths to be offensive and shocking.... brilliant Watson, much pride to be had in that.

 

[OfSinsAndShred]

Okay, this is without reading all of Mr. Edge's or Mr. Zach's last posts, BUT... I will say this: Zach, you said stuff about having a stay-at-home mom, so that's where you were coming from on this. Well, I didn't have that. My parents both worked full time for my whole life... and they didn't choose that - they had to to make ends meet. That left me a lot of free time to watch/listen to whatever the hell I wanted. As a kid who grew up in the middle of nowhere, I spent a lot of time with TV and video games, and so did my one or two friends from the area. We were desensitized to the worst extent, and actually took a lot of this weird kind of pride in it. But my parents still made it a point to be involved in my upbringing... which I really respected. I realized they were putting a lot of effort into raising me, despite their long hours at their jobs, and I think that has a lot to do with me turning out alright (in my opinion).

And like you said earlier, Zach - I've seen a lot of kids become total screw-ups. There's a big drug problem here, and parental involvement during childhood is the factor 99% of the time. I watched and listened to more terrible and immoral stuff than any of those kids, and I'm more polite and well-adjusted than almost anyone from my town.

 

[razoredge]

BTW, you are now wrong about the parenting "rulebook", its out there, slowly but surely, finding its way into everybodys home, our government keeps it, they hold the key to where its locked away and there is rooms full of childless women hidden away, waiting anxiously for the opportunity to bring it out and slap parents up side the head with it. Its become quite an industry in fact, a network of professions. I'd rather write a song about how parents are pieces of shit than one about that though, more fun to abuse freedom of speach than apply it.

Whatever

 

[OfSinsAndShred]

razoredge - I feel like you're seeing differences in your generation and our generation (by "our" I mean people in their early 20's, such as Zach and me, and a lot of this forum) that aren't really there. A lot of people in our generation got smacked by their parents when they did something wrong, myself included! Believe me, the practice is still totally in existence, and very few people my age have a problem with it.

I hate to say it, but the worst thing our generation (and every generation since Gen X) has going for it is apathy. Who can blame us, when you see the leaders in the world we have to look up to? And yeah, maybe we're smart asses to our parents a little more often than we need to be - big deal! I have a way better relationship with my parents than they do with theirs.

And while we're talking about behavior... it's not like our generation was the one that made drugs socially acceptable, and it's not like we made alcohol a cool thing to do for minors. *cough*

 

[CorpseDeception]

The most effective form of punishment my parents had for me was rationalization. Every time I misbehaved I had to rationalize my actions in excruciating detail until they were satisfied. I learned to behave properly in order to avoid that crap.

 

[razoredge]

Wow, he speaks I agree about the screw ups of my era. I have blamed Vietnam and racial turbulence, you know the sixties thing for alot of it, we were soooo soured by the uglyness of it all. Nuclear arms hanging over our head.

Then hippies turned into selfish greedy yuppies... imagine that.

Coke snortin DA's and other "professionals"

Parents smoking weed, swearing, and getting drunk around their kids all the time. This is what my father snapped about in the early nineties when I was annoyed about school budgets and asked him what was up with "teachers aids" we never needed teachers aids and had 26+ in a classroom compared to the 20 at that time, cant speak for other schools. Well let me tell you he snapped, like I had never really seen.

Yeah all that stuff happened, not with all of us but many

I know most troublesome kids grow up to be alright, I know many.

I just went through the hard years with my daughter, whos to be 20 next week, so I spent time at school and heard the stories of disrespect and uncontrolablility, teachers fearing the kids, I fought the lowest common denominator influence. I didnt need it, we, that is my friends and classmates didnt dish it, I didnt get the point of the behavior, the chaos. So yeah your all alright but there has been vast changes there in that age period. I guess I just didnt need it with all else that was going on at the same time. I paid a heavy price, believe me.

Imagine being a parent, driving down the road with the radio on and hearing a song come on that you think might be pretty cool and finding out its message is parents need to get out of the way......... WTF ?

Would you younger people deny that this attitude was not out there when you were teens ? In a near violent kind of way ? Its a real heartbreaker man, serious

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Yes, we've all listened to "anti-establishment" music in one form or another, be it some aggro nu metal or whatever. In this case, "establishment" encompases a wide variety of institutions, including parental and governmental authority, corporations, etc. Sure, it sours you, but most people start getting into those things when they're being disillusioned by the world and realizing adults don't always have all the answers. There's always a struggle once kids realize their parents aren't the smartest folks in the world and that we all need to grow as people on our own. THAT part is called "growing up".

 

[OfSinsAndShred]

Razoredge...Are you really acting like this "anti-establishment" music is a new thing? In that case, I suggest you go back and check out those Alice Cooper records again.

I'd like to add that those "anti-establishment" records are the best thing that's ever happened to me. They made me realize that the status-quo Hollywood bullshit isn't the way the world works, and that I should take a look at things through my own eyes and make my own decisions based on what's important for me.

 

[razoredge]

Gee guys I'd really rather put this to rest but where did I say anyting about "anti-establishment". I could nearly be the origional poster child of mal content and non conformity, if not I lived it, not pretended, but its all about application to me, is it a worthy area for such energy or a bullshit call ? teachers and parents "holdin' me down" ? or holding you up ?

you did not directly answer the question if that attidue about parents getting the fuck out of the way was not bombarded in your face with it ?

Jeff - Schools Out ? Hard core stuff there... yer momma dont dance and your daddy dont rock and roll ? American Woman ? Im thinking hard here and cant come up with much negative energy we were bombarded with by the media. Plenty of anti war songs which is what American Woman was and I just covered all the 60's issues earlier, I totally support that kind of energy and is one reason I like Mustaine so much, the dude has proven to be a profit. Now if you are talking about Halo of Flies and Desperado two of the most excellent songs of the times (for anyone with good taste), they were about a hitman, so was the Godfather + some, very reality based and not very hardcore by todays standards. Paint it Black and Sympathy for the Devil ? god we were pathetically light weight no ? I might have forgot some not sure but I just realized it exemplifies the difference. Whats an old song that focuses "its all your fault, you did this to me, I hate you " there must be at least one ? Seems most of our music was about getting laid and partying, not lets go break something. How did the second Woodstock go ? Wasnt there a third ? Were they all about free love and peace ? Come on, help a brother out, Im sure Im missing something

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Squirrels have made it from my eves into my attic. Trapping begins again tomorrow. Stay tuned for SquirrelQuest 2009... Phuck!

 

[ABQShredHead]

Unfortunately, under the current administration, I only see the issue souring. The parenting issue, I mean - not the squirrels-in-the-attic issue (sorry to hear your pain, JDub). The current administration has stocked our Justice Department and legal advisers with people who believe in international law over our US Constitution. The Constitution sets us apart from all other nations in the world, and now we are pushing our own identity aside to be more like... France? David Ogden, now confirmed as our Deputy AG, believes we should ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which will destroy our rights as parents in how we raise our children. Members in Congress criticize our former administrations (note I used plural there - it's not all GW Bush here) refusal to ratify this convention, pointing out how only two nations in the world have not supported the convention - the US and Somalia. So strong-Left Dems in Congress are saying we're no better than a third-world country for not condemning our own "evil" Constitution.

The convention will limit parents in how they raise their children, bringing our increasingly larger government directly into our homes. As I stated to my senators, government has no place in determining how parents should raise their children, as long as parents neither abuse nor neglect their children. And we already have laws on the books in cases of the latter. But, as progressives wish to again push us down the road farthest from our own national history and idealism, once more we see our elected officials straying from the wishes of our people who elected these officials.

Many generational biases exist in how we accomplish our tasks. Since the Vietnam War was talked about, I'll use that as an example. The GI generation brought our country through WWII during their 20s to 40s. Their actions in the war, resulting from their upbringings as children (and I'm speaking generationally here, not individually), further strengthened their self images as a can-do, hero generation. When they returned from the war and came into their next stage of life as policy makers, they put their can-do attitudes into building on the post-war momentum and societal beneficence to further build our nation into prosperity. Fast forward to the Vietnam War and you see the GI generation, with their self-confident, can-do attitudes in power in the country expecting the generations that follow them to be able to do whatever is required to get things done, just as they did in WWII. Unfortunately, the Boomer generation was coddled during their youth by that same GI generation as parents, and the result was a generation of 20-somethings who did not answer the call. And to compound matters, many more affluent youths at the time found it better to protest against their own society, and they took to the campuses and streets and media to tear down the effort of their country. The GI generation never understood this attitude and mistakenly thought the Boomers would rally forward as they once did in times of national crisis.

So, long-winded answer short, generational gaps have a significantly huge role in defining our path forward as a country.

Back to my role as a parent, I and my wife are extremely vigilant in what we allow our 6- and 2-year-olds to watch on TV. My wife even busts me all the time while I'm watching the news in the morning. The kids don't need to be subjected to that. And we watch the television programs with them. If we feel they programs are something they do not need to see, we move on to another activity. And, yes, Steve, we limit the amount of screen time they get each day. But, as Zach has mentioned as a benefit to his growth and learning, my children also have the benefit of a stay-at-home mother. She has a home-based business she works at, and she allows our kids to be involved in that as well, giving them an early vision of work and self-responsibility. I made decisions early in my adult life that would allow my wife to stay at home if and when we had children, attendind college to pursue an electrical engineering degree (I originally went to college for art, but couldn't stand the fruits in my classes, and then moved on to architecture and music before determining neither had a good path forward in family sustainability later in life and moving to engineering as a final decision), and then working diligently to move up in rank to a good income. I'm thankful for those decisions, decisions made easier by having my own stay-at-home mom and very active parents in my rearing. My parents never missed a soccer game - and I played a ton of soccer as a kid. Active engagement of parents is indeed what brings self confidence to children, developing a support mechanism for the child to move forward in life rather than leaving the child to face fearful new steps without a strong hand on their backs.

That's a ton of fluff there. Snooze.

 

[razoredge]

Nothing is going to stop the direction of your first paragraph, nothing, no elected official, nothing, the powers that be are hell bent on this global bullshit and nothing is going to stop it, theres too much potential money involved for these puppet masters. I know it now seems there is little money left in the world, because it has this elusive vanishing act, you know spontainious billfold combustion. But they know its out there to be had so we play this complex game of fiscal chess where only the cunning can win and winner takes all. Whats that got to do with children ? We need to get children away from their parents to think more like us, to be easier puppeted into care free ignorant bliss to speed this process up. So many are now soon to be missing their chance at collecting all the acorns because we have now wasted 3 decades getting this thing done. So indeed we have squirrels in the attic.

Have fun trying to follow that........

I found it interesting when confiding in the few I did about what went down with my family that they said "children have no rights" talking by the laws of nature of course. Not the self appointed godlike makers of written laws, the great superheros for a day. Again there is alot of money involved here, its a massive occupational field, seeking to promote itself to further glory, regardless the casualities along the way. All focused around the end result of a higher purpose.

You are inaccurate about some of Vietnam, we had a generation trying to re-live their former glory of the great war but for a terribly weaker cause against unbeatable odds which shouldnt be questioned, see Korea for the model, that was their gen there only slightly younger.

Weak, coddled children that couldnt get the job done ? Sure an easier way of life but at first the patriotism was there, shit man all the stuff was deeply imbedded in our heads, through media sources, we were proud children. But here we had a crazy body bag count and NO gains, people that didnt even want to be "freed", so the intended purpose, goal was elusive to youth... who at the same time had nuclear weapons looming over their heads.... for what fucking purpose. What that accomplished generation did was destroy patriotism with that colossal blunder... that is what happened. I have felt my entire life that we didnt need the chaos of the 60's and it destroyed us, it was saddening and irreversable.

Good luck to any parents in the teenage years. I did all the best I could do and seemed on target until 15 when the toilet flushed. I would have been fine if I yielded to the no fear, no boundries mindset but alas that was not how I was raised. We had it sooo easy, she was such an easy child, I guess we had to pay for that in the end. Love her because its inate but never again in retrospect, memories are not supposed to equal pain, pictures becoming surreal visions of disillusioned goodness. I wish this on none but the few deserving of what they dealt.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Gee guys I'd really rather put this to rest but where did I say anyting about "anti-establishment". I could nearly be the origional poster child of mal content and non conformity, if not I lived it, not pretended, but its all about application to me, is it a worthy area for such energy or a bullshit call ? teachers and parents "holdin' me down" ? or holding you up ?

you did not directly answer the question if that attidue about parents getting the fuck out of the way was not bombarded in your face with it ?

I certainly did answer that question and can easily go more in depth. Here's a reminder of how the convo went, with emphasis placed on a key phrase you may have missed.

Imagine being a parent, driving down the road with the radio on and hearing a song come on that you think might be pretty cool and finding out its message is parents need to get out of the way......... WTF ?

Would you younger people deny that this attitude was not out there when you were teens ? In a near violent kind of way ? Its a real heartbreaker man, serious

Yes, we've all listened to "anti-establishment" music in one form or another, be it some aggro nu metal or whatever. In this case, "establishment" encompases a wide variety of institutions, including parental and governmental authority, corporations, etc. Sure, it sours you, but most people start getting into those things when they're being disillusioned by the world and realizing adults don't always have all the answers. There's always a struggle once kids realize their parents aren't the smartest folks in the world and that we all need to grow as people on our own. THAT part is called "growing up".

I'll elaborate. Yes, we have more direct lyrics that are more violent in this day and age. I listened to a ton of Limp Bizkit for example when i was a teen (let's not judge... we all had bad taste here and there). There was also Korn, Papa Roach, etc. Basically anything anti-parent they had were just re-affirming what most people felt at that time as kids. Again, it's called growing up. It's natural for kids to push away from their parents, dislike them, whatever in their teens. Kids want to grow up, experience shit for themselves, and they don't want a parent looking over their shoulder. is this because a song told me to, or because it's human nature? How many people actually go out and kill their parents because a song or a movie told them to? Again (fuck, i feel like a goddamn broken record here sometimes), if the parent is there to give their child perspective earlier in life, the child more than likely will be able to handle this stuff maturely and thus, will not kill his parents! Do you have to like the message? Fuck no, that's your right to dislike it and to try to protect your kids. But to say kids are bombarded with that message is QUITE inaccurate by my estimation.

Now that i think about it, i don't recall one korn or limp bizkit song that has lyrics directly dealing with the concept of "you should hate your parents and defy them in every way". If you have examples, please present them and i can answer your question more directly. If you're just talking about a general angry attitude, that's always been in rock music in some way. Was going to an Elvis show not defying the parents in some ways? Shit, seeing his pelvis sway sure destroyed the fuck outta a nation.

Unfortunately, under the current administration, I only see the issue souring. The parenting issue, I mean - not the squirrels-in-the-attic issue (sorry to hear your pain, JDub). The current administration has stocked our Justice Department and legal advisers with people who believe in international law over our US Constitution. The Constitution sets us apart from all other nations in the world, and now we are pushing our own identity aside to be more like... France? David Ogden, now confirmed as our Deputy AG, believes we should ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which will destroy our rights as parents in how we raise our children. Members in Congress criticize our former administrations (note I used plural there - it's not all GW Bush here) refusal to ratify this convention, pointing out how only two nations in the world have not supported the convention - the US and Somalia. So strong-Left Dems in Congress are saying we're no better than a third-world country for not condemning our own "evil" Constitution.

The convention will limit parents in how they raise their children, bringing our increasingly larger government directly into our homes. As I stated to my senators, government has no place in determining how parents should raise their children, as long as parents neither abuse nor neglect their children. And we already have laws on the books in cases of the latter. But, as progressives wish to again push us down the road farthest from our own national history and idealism, once more we see our elected officials straying from the wishes of our people who elected these officials.

Many generational biases exist in how we accomplish our tasks. Since the Vietnam War was talked about, I'll use that as an example. The GI generation brought our country through WWII during their 20s to 40s. Their actions in the war, resulting from their upbringings as children (and I'm speaking generationally here, not individually), further strengthened their self images as a can-do, hero generation. When they returned from the war and came into their next stage of life as policy makers, they put their can-do attitudes into building on the post-war momentum and societal beneficence to further build our nation into prosperity. Fast forward to the Vietnam War and you see the GI generation, with their self-confident, can-do attitudes in power in the country expecting the generations that follow them to be able to do whatever is required to get things done, just as they did in WWII. Unfortunately, the Boomer generation was coddled during their youth by that same GI generation as parents, and the result was a generation of 20-somethings who did not answer the call. And to compound matters, many more affluent youths at the time found it better to protest against their own society, and they took to the campuses and streets and media to tear down the effort of their country. The GI generation never understood this attitude and mistakenly thought the Boomers would rally forward as they once did in times of national crisis.

So, long-winded answer short, generational gaps have a significantly huge role in defining our path forward as a country.

If you have some resources for this, hit me up on msn or pm or something. I'd like to read more about this. I voted third party

Back to my role as a parent, I and my wife are extremely vigilant in what we allow our 6- and 2-year-olds to watch on TV. My wife even busts me all the time while I'm watching the news in the morning. The kids don't need to be subjected to that.

Kind of off topic, but I heard an awesome quote. I think it was from Penn Gilette on his show "Bullshit!" in the episode about parenting and strangers and all that shit. Or rather, a guest who's kid was abducted, raped and murdered. Pretty horrible stuff, but she said that while this is awful, she doesn't agree with the fear based "Don't talk to strangers" attitude. Sure, you can tell the kids not to talk to strangers or be aware of what's going on, not to accept gifts etc, but (you may or may not agree with the last part, that's up to each individual family, the next part is what i found intriguing) it is not the kid's responsibility to worry about those things. It's the kids responsibility to be a kid and to have fun, and it's the parent's responsibility to make sure their kids are safe and watch out. Shit still happens and sometimes there's nothing the parent can do, so i'm not saying "blame the parent if some stupid fuck kidnaps their child". It's more of an aside to the convo that relates.

And we watch the television programs with them. If we feel they programs are something they do not need to see, we move on to another activity. And, yes, Steve, we limit the amount of screen time they get each day. But, as Zach has mentioned as a benefit to his growth and learning, my children also have the benefit of a stay-at-home mother. She has a home-based business she works at, and she allows our kids to be involved in that as well, giving them an early vision of work and self-responsibility. I made decisions early in my adult life that would allow my wife to stay at home if and when we had children, attendind college to pursue an electrical engineering degree (I originally went to college for art, but couldn't stand the fruits in my classes, and then moved on to architecture and music before determining neither had a good path forward in family sustainability later in life and moving to engineering as a final decision), and then working diligently to move up in rank to a good income. I'm thankful for those decisions, decisions made easier by having my own stay-at-home mom and very active parents in my rearing. My parents never missed a soccer game - and I played a ton of soccer as a kid. Active engagement of parents is indeed what brings self confidence to children, developing a support mechanism for the child to move forward in life rather than leaving the child to face fearful new steps without a strong hand on their backs.

Nailed it. And my parents also didn't allow us to watch tv just for the sake of watching. I remember being 4 or 5 and watching the simpsons, very controversial at the time but my mom ALWAYS told me bart was not a role model. I remember watching Bevis and Butthead with my parents because some kids on the playground told me about it and my parents wanted to watch it with us, regardless of the naughty content. That way, they get to talk about it with us first before we go "let's go play frog baseball!"

Most of the time we had to go outside and play though. Nothing like having a good ol' ball.