You're out of your fucking mind if you think that's how it happens. Most new bands, even on labels, play to crowds of 2-15 people MOST nights in the US. How do I know? I did it. And we had a top-40 active rock single...Not huge, but it was out there. My old band is STILL playing to small crowds 80% of the time, and their shit has been pirated to fuck and back. So where are these merch-buying crowds, I ask? The fact of the matter is, for MOST working bands, turn-out at shows is dropping sharply. This is how it is in the US, in nearly every state I've been in. If the band is young, less than 5 years old, they're screwed if they don't have massive amounts of money already behind them...and that's still nowhere near a guarantee.
Open Letter about file sharing to some chick at NPR
- Thread starter Revson
- Start date
You're out of your fucking mind if you think that's how it happens. Most new bands, even on labels, play to crowds of 2-15 people MOST nights in the US. How do I know? I did it. And we had a top-40 active rock single...Not huge, but it was out there. My old band is STILL playing to small crowds 80% of the time, and their shit has been pirated to fuck and back. So where are these merch-buying crowds, I ask? The fact of the matter is, for MOST working bands, turn-out at shows is dropping sharply. This is how it is in the US, in nearly every state I've been in. If the band is young, less than 5 years old, they're screwed if they don't have massive amounts of money already behind them...and that's still nowhere near a guarantee.
TravisW
Member
Music piracy is way older than the internet, in the same sense that copyright infringement dates to the origin of the printing press. The difference is that now, you don't pay the pirates. The advertisers pay the pirates.
As far as the proliferation of music, I don't know that I agree with the notion that file sharing has made for better fans. Music has become a valueless commodity (at which point, it's pretty much a non-commodity). Sure, you have access to thousands of musicians of hundreds of styles, but to what extent is it ADHD with an audio component? Is the "mile high, inch deep" view of music making for better fans? Record sales, which are thus far the only metric for measuring the depth of a band's fan base, aren't really proving this out. I'll tell you this much; when I was in college and could only afford to buy a CD every once and a while, they were incredibly valuable purchases, and I listened to them very extensively before I ever determined that they were worth something or not. To date, I've only ever sold 2 CDs. King Crimson's "Lark's Tongues in Aspic" was a hard listen for a while, but I eventually got into it. That would not have been the case had I been able to move immediately to another download and steal something else.
Here's another thing that gets my goat. The economy right now isn't great, but this isn't the first time it hasn't been great. It sucked in the early 90s when I went off to college. I had little money but bought a $15 CD whenever I could. You know what? Music isn't bread, and stealing music isn't like Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread. Listening to new music without paying for it isn't a human right, and it irritates the living fuck out of me when people act as though it is.
As far as the proliferation of music, I don't know that I agree with the notion that file sharing has made for better fans. Music has become a valueless commodity (at which point, it's pretty much a non-commodity). Sure, you have access to thousands of musicians of hundreds of styles, but to what extent is it ADHD with an audio component? Is the "mile high, inch deep" view of music making for better fans? Record sales, which are thus far the only metric for measuring the depth of a band's fan base, aren't really proving this out. I'll tell you this much; when I was in college and could only afford to buy a CD every once and a while, they were incredibly valuable purchases, and I listened to them very extensively before I ever determined that they were worth something or not. To date, I've only ever sold 2 CDs. King Crimson's "Lark's Tongues in Aspic" was a hard listen for a while, but I eventually got into it. That would not have been the case had I been able to move immediately to another download and steal something else.
Here's another thing that gets my goat. The economy right now isn't great, but this isn't the first time it hasn't been great. It sucked in the early 90s when I went off to college. I had little money but bought a $15 CD whenever I could. You know what? Music isn't bread, and stealing music isn't like Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread. Listening to new music without paying for it isn't a human right, and it irritates the living fuck out of me when people act as though it is.
So you think if piracy didn't exist that there would have been MORE people at your shows? Trying to grasp this logic behind how this plays into what I said...I can't POSSIBLY understand how live turnout and pirated music can be adversely related. If your live turnout sucks, it has nothing to do with piracy.
I can pretty much guarantee that everybody in this thread has at least downloaded a cd or watched a youtube video of some illegally uploaded music. Criminals, all of you.
So Ermz I suppose you are advocating the SOPA & PIPA acts that were so controversial and almost unanimously hated? Ruling through fear? Online police nazis? Sign me up!
Habsburgs
Member
- May 13, 2006
- 1,763
- 9
- 38
"Initially we were delighted after receiving an email from someone at London 2012, asking us to play."
"But then, actually to find out that it was unpaid, I think this demeans what I've been training to do for 20 years."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18637276
The Musicians Union (MU) has urged professional musicians not to work for free at the London 2012 Olympics taking place next month.
It is difficult enough to earn a decent living as a professional musician these days where does this idea come from that musicians should be happy to work for free? Who else would be?
http://www.audioprointernational.co...ans-not-to-work-free-at-london-olympics/04748
"But then, actually to find out that it was unpaid, I think this demeans what I've been training to do for 20 years."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18637276
The Musicians Union (MU) has urged professional musicians not to work for free at the London 2012 Olympics taking place next month.
It is difficult enough to earn a decent living as a professional musician these days where does this idea come from that musicians should be happy to work for free? Who else would be?
http://www.audioprointernational.co...ans-not-to-work-free-at-london-olympics/04748
drew_drummer
Dancefap
How very Reaganite of you.
I don't disagree with the guy, but he just comes across as trying to shame her, even though he's insisting he isn't. He does make some good points though.
RE: Emily herself...
Yes you twat. That is too much to ask.
No, you're missing the point: piracy didn't bring more people to shows. That's an argument pitched by people who either do not understand or do not see the ramifications of the issue. And it wasn't just MY live turnout. It's the live turnout at damn near every show I go to, in damn near every city I'm in. Besides big fests that have millions in advertisement behind them, actual working bands are suffering.
It's all well and good to tell an artist "well, at least your work got out there" which is the main goal of it...But when said artist cannot put food on his table or keep a roof over his head...well, just getting the work out there doesn't mean as much as staying alive. And don't say "why don't they just go get a 'real' job" or whatever, because for most true artists, it's not that simple. This is something that they HAVE to do in order to keep their sanity...and that often doesn't keep them from losing it. And if, god forbid, you're on a label...they may have you so locked up that you can't go find another job that actually pays. No one will hire a guy if he's only home 3 days a month, and touring making zero cash the rest of the time.
HCL
Holy Crap! Lions!
The only way I can see music becoming remonetised is for labels to integrate with ISPs, which would reinstate the band->label->public dynamic as the norm. I think everything else is a pipe dream and unrealistic. Make a 'free' music library to download part of your internet package and have the ISPs pay a % of their income to record labels that they work with. The ISPs who do this will get more profit from out-competing those who don't.
@Jordon, so yeah, live music isn't the most popular thing around these days. Is that your point?
I'm not sure if you guys understand how small the amount of money that bands make from royalties is...If you sell 100,000 songs in a year, your band might collectively make about 10k USD from the sales. That 10k will be divided up among who has the songwriting credit for those songs. That is a lot of sales...and does that sound like real life income for all of the members of the band? I wish there were dudes in popular signed bands on here to come in and verify how insignificant mechanical royalties are in their lives. Royalties can pay for each member of the band to have a meal at McDonalds at the end of the month. Metal bands are not making serious money off of that, piracy or not, unless they are Metallica.
Piracy affects the labels more than bands. Eventually I think the label structure will fall, bands will start to own their own music and hopefully make more than 10 cents per song sold, and the industry will have to sort itself out. The entire industry simply HAS TO CHANGE to sustain itself, and it has nothing to do with doing the impossible (stopping piracy). Real fans will always support their bands.
I'm not sure if you guys understand how small the amount of money that bands make from royalties is...If you sell 100,000 songs in a year, your band might collectively make about 10k USD from the sales. That 10k will be divided up among who has the songwriting credit for those songs. That is a lot of sales...and does that sound like real life income for all of the members of the band? I wish there were dudes in popular signed bands on here to come in and verify how insignificant mechanical royalties are in their lives. Royalties can pay for each member of the band to have a meal at McDonalds at the end of the month. Metal bands are not making serious money off of that, piracy or not, unless they are Metallica.
Piracy affects the labels more than bands. Eventually I think the label structure will fall, bands will start to own their own music and hopefully make more than 10 cents per song sold, and the industry will have to sort itself out. The entire industry simply HAS TO CHANGE to sustain itself, and it has nothing to do with doing the impossible (stopping piracy). Real fans will always support their bands.
Firaxis
Member
Fundamentally I agree with this letter. Angela Gossow also released a statement recently which details the situation pretty well. After downloading the entire back catalogue of a band, saying you will go to a gig and buy merch is bullshit. If people don't buy the CD the band can't afford the tour. Most of these people probably wouldn't even do that! If you have done any sort of touring you guys will know just how expensive it is, even a little stint around the UK in two cars costs a lot of money.
I will admit yes I've downloaded stuff but no where near what some people have. I own a good number of CD's which I payed for on a shitty £3.20ph job as well as rent and all that shit.
The guy is right where he says people are willing to spend hundreds on the latest fashionable apple product but paying a tenner for a CD is out of bounds.
I will admit yes I've downloaded stuff but no where near what some people have. I own a good number of CD's which I payed for on a shitty £3.20ph job as well as rent and all that shit.
The guy is right where he says people are willing to spend hundreds on the latest fashionable apple product but paying a tenner for a CD is out of bounds.
drew_drummer
Dancefap
Get a synch for an advert, and you could be set for years and years, if not the rest of your life. I know people who have experienced this. Mechanical royalties are the bread and butter that a lot of artists live on.
TesticleMilkshake
pewpewlazrz
No offense, but this whole debate is like comparing apples to apples. Regardless, someone's going to be upset either because they feel they are not making the money that they FEEL their entitled to (not necessarily whether it is geninunely deserved or not.) Additionally, the consumer is going to try to get best deal they can when acquiring music. The majority of people listening to music, unfortunately, really have no gauge of morality regarding how song is aqcuired Law of economics will be prevail, unless you're already established, then fans will pay for "hard copies" of music, live shows, additional merchandise, etf. Whether or not you agree with it, this is THE REALITY of the situation. Personally, looking at the posts above, this argument is going in circles.
I agree that piracy, thanks to a lack of global regulation on intellectual property, will always exist. In order to win the fight on ripped copyrIghted material, a new, more secure medium for music is needed. Until then, any arguments against the problem other than on an ethical level, are really moot.
I agree that piracy, thanks to a lack of global regulation on intellectual property, will always exist. In order to win the fight on ripped copyrIghted material, a new, more secure medium for music is needed. Until then, any arguments against the problem other than on an ethical level, are really moot.
Trevoire520
Member
I don't get the "I'll download an album of a band I've never heard of to check them out" logic.
Go to Spotify, Facebook, Myspace, Reverbnation etc and you can likely check out a whole bunch of the bands work for free legally, and then if you like it you can buy it. Hell the other day I streamed the entire new Offspring album on the Rolling Stone website and then you know what I did? I bought it! Along with a Motorhead album (which I also checked out using the mp3 previews) as they were both in Amazon's 2 albums for £10 section.
So this "I have to pirate music in order to see if it's any good and decide if I want to support the artist" argument is bullshit. There's plenty of ways to check stuff out without stealing it.
Go to Spotify, Facebook, Myspace, Reverbnation etc and you can likely check out a whole bunch of the bands work for free legally, and then if you like it you can buy it. Hell the other day I streamed the entire new Offspring album on the Rolling Stone website and then you know what I did? I bought it! Along with a Motorhead album (which I also checked out using the mp3 previews) as they were both in Amazon's 2 albums for £10 section.
So this "I have to pirate music in order to see if it's any good and decide if I want to support the artist" argument is bullshit. There's plenty of ways to check stuff out without stealing it.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I think you mean to say that the ethical debates are moot. Nobody other than an ingrate would dispute that stealing intellectual property is unethical.
Mutant
I hate that supercow !
Current rotten state of music industry: $1000 gets me 100 albums at $10 each and artists i listen to get $100 (10% or $1 each).
I want to be able to pay directly to an artist so it should be: $1000 gets me 500 albums at $2 each and artists i listen to get $1000 (100% or $2 each).
Both musicians and their fans are getting robbed by record companies and all the middlemen.
I want to be able to pay directly to an artist so it should be: $1000 gets me 500 albums at $2 each and artists i listen to get $1000 (100% or $2 each).
Both musicians and their fans are getting robbed by record companies and all the middlemen.
TesticleMilkshake
pewpewlazrz
Hahahahaha, say that to China or Russia. I personally feel that this arguement would be more productive by debating ethics of stealing intellectual property. While stealing on a very basic level is wrong, what about those who have to steal to feed their family. Let's say I'm taking an ethnomusicology course, and have to research an album which is no longer in print. My library could get a copy of it, but it would take a month to ship from an off campus site. The album is not available on any databases, however there is a hardcopy going for $60 on Amazon, no MP3s are available for sale because it is in low demand. However, a search on Demonoid reveals a torrent that would take 2 days to download. Being a student, time and money is of the ecessence, so I would probably end up torrenting the album. I'm only going to use it once, so I personally do not see this as being so evil.
The reason why I may torrent or rapidshit is not necessarily because I don't want to pay for something, but because sometimes that the only feasible option that is available. Also Mutant's argument above really sums up how I feel about the music industry, the financial hierarchy of it all can get really stupid and isn't always directly benefiting the band or performer.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
Yet bypassing that hierarchy entirely doesn't benefit anyone (even the listener, down in the long term). You've got to accept that the people who work marketing, publishing, royalties etc. all fulfill valid roles in the process, much as the band do. They all deserve to make a living.
Regarding extenuating circumstances, of course the 'rules' change when you consider material which is no longer available through official means. Let's just assume that, for the purpose of this discussion at least, we're referring to artists who have their music readily available both in physical and digital form to the entire world.
I'd be more interested whether Russia and China actually have an equivalent to the word 'ethics' in their national dictionaries at all! I don't think the idea has even been given form over yonder.
Regarding extenuating circumstances, of course the 'rules' change when you consider material which is no longer available through official means. Let's just assume that, for the purpose of this discussion at least, we're referring to artists who have their music readily available both in physical and digital form to the entire world.
I'd be more interested whether Russia and China actually have an equivalent to the word 'ethics' in their national dictionaries at all! I don't think the idea has even been given form over yonder.
smy1
Member
Jordon: no offense, but maybe your band and all the shows you go to just don't appeal to people anymore? We went on a 13 show US tour this year (I'm from Germany), playing crowds between 50 and 650 people. We flew from city to city (cause we were only 3 guys) and I ended up making a bit over 6000 Euro (8500 US dollars) into my own pocket (this includes merch income) for a 3 week trip after all expenses (like $10000 flighttickets, $1500 workvisa, $1000 drugs/booze, etc.). My DJ and my TM made 1750/2000 dollar respectively on that 2,5 week trip. I sell an average of $600/month mp3s via Tunecore and have release peaks of $2500/month when a new album comes out (this does not include CD sales). In Europe I can pocket around 500-600 Euros (750 US$) per show for myself (not counting merch). If I didn't choose to have a well paying dayjob, I could live off of my music, but I'd rather reinvest in the project (videos etc.). I started this in 2006.
My projections for the 2013 US tour (where we'll use a bus instead of flying because I'll bring more musicians and more on-stage equipment) I estimate a tour budget of $35000-40000 with a possible net gain of between $1000-$10000 for me (depending on merch sales).
Maybe all those bands you know are just doing it wrong?
My projections for the 2013 US tour (where we'll use a bus instead of flying because I'll bring more musicians and more on-stage equipment) I estimate a tour budget of $35000-40000 with a possible net gain of between $1000-$10000 for me (depending on merch sales).
Maybe all those bands you know are just doing it wrong?
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
Here's that interview with Angela Gossow, where she gets stuck into the music biz: http://www.theaureview.com/interviews/the-au-interview-angela-gossow-of-arch-enemy-halmstad-sweden
Pretty interesting to hear it from her perspective.
Pretty interesting to hear it from her perspective.
drew_drummer
Dancefap
Hmm. To be fair, you've got a pretty big following. Now did that come from endless touring, living on baked beans, not having much money... or did you hire a publicist/PR company to spread the word?
There's loads of ways to get cash, a following, and tours. Some of them are old skool, and loads of bands know those methods - which is why they're failing. Not many bands are future savvy enough to really get on board with the way things work these days.
It's not just about how good you are. There are loads of really good bands that have 300 people following them on Facebook, never get a look in on the bigger support slots at their local venues, and generally remain underground. I imagine it wasn't instant success for you overnight either.
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