P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

[Dustin]

It looks like this thread is beginning to die down… (maybe?)

But before it does, I wanted to throw in my feelings on this being a musician who has to go to work every morning, pay a mortgage and support a family. Most musicians would rather not participate in this discussion, but I feel I should speak my mind. I am in no way speaking for all artists here or anywhere, but just my personal feelings as a person who works hard to make music.

Fist off, I will point out that the goal for us from day one, was not to “make a living” at what we do, but rather create music for others to enjoy, more so for the people that like the same things we do. It is a way to connect on a different level. We are realistic with our feet firmly planted on planet earth, and we don’t expect to be raking in the cash now or anytime in the future. However, the only thing we would really ever want is to be compensated for our services (i.e. the work and expenses of creating the music that is available). In order to continue doing this, that is the one thing that has to happen. Sure it would be nice to at least make a decent living off of playing music, but in this day and age, that is probably not going to happen.

Thanks to technology, it has become much more affordable to make quality recordings and cut out a lot of the costs. Ironically, the same advance in technology has also made it easier for these recordings to be taken from the artist that create them, for no cost at all. However, at the end of the day, it all still costs money to someone, and how much of it you have as capitol, will probably dictate the quality of product that will be put out in the future. Every band wants to have the best product available, but how do you do that for “free”?

Some labels are cutting back on their advances, or don’t give advances at all due to the high amount of piracy and drop in sales due to a flooded market. How is a band supposed to make the music if the very lable that is supposed to support them can’t afford to? The artist has to pay for it all themselves in advance and HOPE that the record lable sells enough to reimburse the artist? Outside of distribution and publicity, the band is on their own… and takes the brunt of what losses may come.

Concerning downloading: that is a very broad word when you think about it, is downloading in itself wrong? I don’t think so… if anything, it is the actual intentions of the individual and the methods used that are put into question. It’s the same concept of “do guns kill people or do people kill people”? When the downloading subject comes up such as this, it becomes a grey area for many. Some feel downloading is outright wrong in any form, some feel that downloading is okay if you purchased or intended to purchase a product (digital or tangible), and others feel that its their god given right to do so just because they can.

I’m not here to sway judgments on the issue, but rather give my insight as one that makes music. For one thing, it breaks my heart to read here, or anywhere else, people saying in a very matter-of-fact tone, that (media piracy) is just the way it is now and to move on… or go the way of the Dodo. I have a hard time with that, especially when I look at the costs incurred from our recent album that just came out. How am I as an artist supposed to sit back and take that? Am I now obligated to create music just for the sake of some people feeling they deserve it and I should bend over and take it because that is just the way it is these days? That is a very disappointing and bleak view… should I also go to work everyday without pay and smile about it because it’s expected from my boss? I doubt my mortgage company, or my daughter and wife, would find that to be a viable excuse. Of course that is an extreme example, but I just want to make my point. For me, that is months and months of hard work and money, and to know that it is just being handed out makes it difficult to digest, and brings into question, “why am I doing this”? Obviously because I love it, and with the few that enjoy our music and buy our albums, it does make it worth while. But sometimes, it does bother us to know we are being taken advantage of, especially with the work that is put into it. If we had any inkling that being a musician meant you were giving away your talent as charity, none of us would have even bothered.

This isn’t the tape trading days, it’s not 5 or 10 friends sharing the album for free with the possible intention to buy it down the road, it is in the thousands, and a good percentage probably don’t have those same intentions, nor do they care what the long term effects are.

I guess the other problem is the piracy of an entire album. Our new album is the first album of ours to end up on every single P2P site out there, which is strange being that we have three albums prior that never made it onto the torrent sites. So all of a sudden we became relevant enough to steal from? I don’t know if I should be complimented or insulted. Does it really have to be the entire album? Does it really have to be at 128kbs? I can usually tell if I am going to like a band and buy their album from two or three songs. I understand some people can’t, but I can… there needs to be a better system and method of previewing an artist material rather than taking the whole thing in CD quality. There are no security measures that anyone on either side of the coin is happy with. Right now, there is no control or standard set to prevent the whole world from stealing your music, and I think that is what frightens me most, and brings into question how long we will be around, as well as many other bands that we all love. In fact, Glenn’s idea is one of the best options I have heard ever. It is the closest, most logical thing I have read anywhere.

When a fan comes up to me for an autograph and hands me a booklet from an album, it makes me smile and warms my heart, I know their intentions and I will love them for supporting us and make them aware of this at that moment… but when a fan hands me an ass gasket they grabbed out of the bathroom stall and say, “I love your stuff! I downloaded all your albums and totally dig you guys! If I had a CD I would have you sign it, but I don’t… but here’s an ass gasket to sign instead!” I have to wonder to myself… did they buy it or download a pirate version off a P2P? If they bought a T-shirt during this conversation, I might feel less awkward about the situation, but I have to take their word for it if they said they did purchase it, but then again, I have been known to get in a few heated arguments on occasion with those taht openly admitted they downloaded our stuff but didn’t pay for it, but had some rather terrible excuses as to why they did. I don’t care what the excuse is, if you’re a fan of our band, you’ll support us, not steal from us. But I know for sure the fan that came up to me with a CD booklet bought it, or hopefully did and didn’t shoplift it. At least I got a buck or two out of the $10 - $15 that ass gasket dude spent at the door for our live performance, assuming he didn’t get in for free too. Just food for thought….

So, here are my feelings on it in general: if downloading will help us generate more fans, and future sales to keep it financialy viable to keep makeing msuic - Download our albums, download away! I will 100% agree that everyone should be able to “test drive” an artist music before purchase! However, If you like it, please buy it, be it a hard copy CD, or digital, and know that you are helping us to continue making the music you enjoy, and you have our gratitude in advance. Again, it is all about honesty and the persons intentions when downloading it. If you don’t like, delete it, or… pass it along to someone that you know will like it and buy it.

If you are one of those that feels that you don’t need to pay for our services, and have a right to it just because it is out there for the taking, or are to broke to afford our music so you feel it is justifiable to steal from us, the record label, the recording studio, the engineer, the producer, the graphics artist, the wholesaler and the distributor… I hope karma catches up to you one day in the worst way possible.

And for the record - Anyone who thinks a band can recoup recoding costs by extensive touring and the selling of merchandise at live shows, just to make up for the loss in monotary royalties due to the growing rate of illegal downloads.... is severely misinformed. Especially for the bands in our position. (day jobs, family, ect. ect)

I also posted my thoughts long ago about digital vs. hard copy media here http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/katagory-v/277800-cds-become-obsolete-now-way.html

That is a whole different ball of wax for me on a personal level.

 

[Meedleyx10]

+ a whole shit-ton

 

[The Fiddler]

It looks like this thread is beginning to die down… (maybe?)

But before it does, I wanted to throw in my feelings on this being a musician who has to go to work every morning, pay a mortgage and support a family. Most musicians would rather not participate in this discussion, but I feel I should speak my mind.

Thanks for your thoughts, always nice to hear a working musician's input.

I just ordered your new CD from Nightmare Records last night. Love the tune I heard on the Nightmare Records sampler Lance was giving away at ProgPower. Slick vocals and with a classic prog metal feel. The sampler also promped me to pick up the new Vainglory from Nightmare.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

It looks like this thread is beginning to die down… (maybe?)

But before it does, I wanted to throw in my feelings on this being a musician who has to go to work every morning, pay a mortgage and support a family. Most musicians would rather not participate in this discussion, but I feel I should speak my mind. I am in no way speaking for all artists here or anywhere, but just my personal feelings as a person who works hard to make music.

Many, many thanks for posting this, Dustin. I know how long it takes to write something lengthy and well-thought-out. You put a lot of time, heart, and soul into your post. It shows.

I have nothing to add to it other than, "Dude, I'm buying your latest CD (which I liked from the Nightmare sampler) and your back catalog right now."

I would love to see this thread end with Dustin's post and (positive) comments on it. I don't think anything more can or needs to be said.

Bill

 

[SeaStorm]

***This is true, HOWEVER, the term "illegal" is a complete can of worms and is a moral call as well as by the law. As i said, I do not argue that the bands/artists suffer from this, BUT, it's impossible to stop it, unfortunately. If you really want to get into "LAWS", we can post about running red lights and stop signs too, I don't mean to be a wide ass and I know this is a music forum but you brought up LAW.

I just brought up the law in response to other people's incorrect statements of law. I'm a lawyer, it's what we do

I'd like to point out that all laws are moral. As much as people like to pretend that morals and laws are separate, the basis for all laws are a moral basis. So yes, saying "illegal" is a legal and a moral statement. That's always true.

You know, when people make the traffic analogy, they usually mention speeding, because almost everyone does it. You used "running red lights"??? Yikes, that's one of the best ways to endanger other people's lives (along with drunk driving). I speed some, yes. I don't run red lights. But I get your drift I'd also make the point that breaking traffic laws (jaywalking is the other classic example used) doesn't damage other people's livelihoods. It's much more victimless than illegal downloading.

Last point, then I'm done here (it has run its course). I totally get that the legal argument will not "fix" the problem. The paradigm has changed and new models must come into being. I just tend to comment on the legal stuff because it's what I know. I don't have answers. I'm not visionary on this stuff. I'll leave it to smarter people than me to come up how things should be in the future.

It's been a good conversation here.

 

[Daybreaker]

Dustin's quote about smiling when people bring cds to get signed makes me feel a whole lot better. Yes, I'm an asshole who when I see a band I'll bring all the cds and singles to get signed. But I have NEVER had an artist tell me "this is just too much shit I'm not signing it all." If someone did tell me that I'd probably just walk away and politely excuse them from my listening cycles.

 

[Dark One]

Downloading an album, enjoying and then buying the album = borrowing the album

Downloading an album, realizing it's not for you and then getting rid of the album = test driving the album

Downloading an album, enjoying and continuing to listen to the album without buying the album = stealing the album

Borrowing an album is ok, test driving an album is ok, stealing an album is not ok.

My take.

Jason

 

[MEGALOUD]

Downloading an album, enjoying and then buying the album = borrowing the album

Downloading an album, realizing it's not for you and then getting rid of the album = test driving the album

Downloading an album, enjoying and continuing to listen to the album without buying the album = stealing the album

Borrowing an album is ok, test driving an album is ok, stealing an album is not ok.

My take.

Jason

And that is what the industry and musicians have to live with at this moment, we're all on the honor system, you take a candy out, you put a coin in, although now what we have to ad to that statement is........ if you don't like the candy and don't plan on paying for it, then spit it out~!!!!

 

[Curufin]

But if you "throw it out" if you don't like it then there's a very small chance you'll ever listen to that band again. If you're not planning to buy the album because you don't like the music, why delete it? It's not costing the artist any more or less if you keep it or delete it. Later on you may revisit that album that you didn't like a while ago and find that you really dig it (and subsequently go and buy the album). This has happened to me with numerous bands, and they never would've seen a cent of my money if I'd just deleted the album when I downloaded it and didn't like it.

 

[Dustin]

@ Bill (PurpleCrayonWriter) and The Fiddler:

Thanks you guys!!!

It really means a lot to us to know that even one song made that much of an impact for you to make that decision! We certainly hope you enjoy the album(s)!

@ Daybreaker:

If ANY artist (or their goons) ever pulls an attitude on you about having to sign so much stuff, you should take their shit and throw in the trash... and be sure to do it within their line of sight, just to pove a point. I know I would. If it wasn't for the hardcore metal fans like you, that artist would NOT exist. There are a few musicians out there who seem to forget that, and need to be humbled from time to time. Personally, if someone like yourself dumped a pile of CD's and merch in my lap and wanted it all signed, I would graciously do it, and probably buy you a drink on top of it, since you obviously went to such great leanghts to aquire that much material to have signed.

 

[Ascension]

Ascension, I disagree with your assertion that everyone wants digital-only music. I think some do. I think many might. But I know all don't. Many young people -- allegedly the most mobile of all demo groups -- like the artwork, lyrics, and entire experience of buying albums just as much as I do. One thing I know they like -- because I've read the research on them -- is choices. They don't like to be told what to do. They like to make their own decisions. So I don't think anyone -- except, perhaps, for you -- would like it if all choices were removed and all we had left was a digital download. Music wouldn't be the same. Distributors would be out of business. Independent music stores would be out of business. And CD cover artists wouldn't have their art in the hands of fans all over the world.

l understand your need to have a tangible product...l've been there. Young people? Hmm...the younger population l come in contact with are my nephews & their multitude of friends...ages 14 - 24. They don't buy CDs. They download...they have their Ipods & MP3 players and they are getting their music. But they refuse to be weighted down with CDS...as fast as they move...they would lose them anyway. They could care less about artwork. The internet gives them access to any info they want on a band & see the artwork if they like. Really they don't care about this...but they will see the bands live if they roll through a town nearby. l am of the same mindset.

You are right. Record companies, bands, distributors will die if they don't get with the program. Technology has surpassed their ability to do business. The masses want it and you better give them what they want...or get left behind.

I really hope this is not the case. For me, and many others I know, digital releases = uke:

It might suit you fine, but others like me would be pretty upset. I don't download anything. Period. I don't feel burdened (or encumbered as you say) by the hundreds of CDs I have on my shelf at home. My boyfriend doesn't feel burdened by the thousands of CDs he has on his shelves. And neither he nor I ever feel burdened at ProgPower or Flight of the Valkyries where we purchased several hundreds of dollars of tangible CDs from the vendors and had to hold onto them all night, carry them back to my hotel, or transport them home. We like having a physical product and believe it or not, others do too.

There's nothing wrong with the fact that you like your media in a digital format, but please don't think you can speak for all of society on this topic. There have already been a dozen or more people on this forum who have admitted they prefer a physical product, and I would guarantee that there are more folks like us out there in the world.

And I would like record companies & bands to keep their product in a tangible state as well. Not everyone has moved past that point. (Someone will probably have to drag me there kicking and screaming one day.) Plenty of people still want to read the newspaper in print, purchase magazines to hold the glossy pages while they read articles (or to rip out the posters and wallpaper their rooms with them), and hold a CD Case/Book in their hands while they listen to it on their stereo. It's not to say that media in other forms does not have value or that it is a bad ides, just that a good amount of people still prefer to hold something tangible in their hands. It is that way for me (and many others I know) particularly with CDs. I want to look through my shelves of CDs, choose one or three or five to listen to, hold the case in my hands, open it, look through the liner notes and at the artwork - not just click a button on my computer or my iPod (which I don't even own at this point).

The market wasn't "meant to be" intangible. If it was "meant to be" that way than it would have been that way from the very beginning. It's great that new outlets have been created for media, but that doesn't mean that every form that came before the current has to die. Some have, but some still exists, and I hope that some, like CDs and LPs, continue exist.

l understand your point(s) also. You feel that holding that coveted CD in your hand puts you closer to the band in some way. Been there done that. That's why so many people get their stuff autographed. l've never done that...but more power to them....if it gives them a feeling of completeness...knock yourself out. But, l can tell you...as l mentioned earlier...the young people l'm in contact with don't feel this way. It's not important to them to hold it...but they do want to hear it. And they will because they have the means.

l never said the market was intangible...the product is. Music is something you can't hold. But, record companies, bands, etc. would prefer to keep it in some tangible form. LPs, tapes, & CDs have been easy to market & sell. They can give a customer something they can see & touch...not just hear. And, we are conditioned to buy into it. But as l see it, the general population is getting past that. Technology is helping them do so at a rate so fast that it has the record industry reeling.

l remember when there was the argument among a segment of people that said that no way would tapes replace albums. Then came CDs...the same argument went up. Albums are pretty much a thing of the past. Now we're in the digital age. The way l see it adaptation means survival. But, there is a segment that will do their best to hold on for dear life. Dinosaurs.

 

[Jim LotFP]

The masses want it and you better give them what they want...or get left behind.

But, there is a segment that will do their best to hold on for dear life. Dinosaurs.

I know I'm taking this out of context, but this is really a horrible way to think. In fact, it isn't so long ago that playing metal AT ALL put you in this category of "getting left behind" and liking it meant you were a dinosaur holding on for dear life to something that already died.

"The market" can do a great many things, but accomodating art isn't one of them.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

I know I'm taking this out of context, but this is really a horrible way to think. In fact, it isn't so long ago that playing metal AT ALL put you in this category of "getting left behind" and liking it meant you were a dinosaur holding on for dear life to something that already died.

"The market" can do a great many things, but accomodating art isn't one of them.

Jim, I had no idea what you do until I clicked through your banner ad to discover what LotFP, or Lamentations of the Flame Princess, is:

...a heavy metal print publication that has released over sixty individual issues since October 1998. Its content is totally independent of record company supervision or interference (no advertising is accepted), and we like to think LotFP contains the most in-depth and critical heavy metal writing currently in print. LotFP treats music as an art form that has value, and we treat heavy metal as a serious form of musical expression. We cover metal bands that are either unsigned or on very small record labels and, in this internet age, we take pride in being a place where our readers discover new bands rather than simply reading about bands they already know.

If all your issues are as well written and passionate as that paragraph, I'd say you're a step above many music pubs I've seen out there. I especially liked this:

LotFP treats music as an art form that has value, and we treat heavy metal as a serious form of musical expression.

Now I see why why you feel the way you do about downloading. It's not a product or a commodity to you; it's an art form that should be respected and protected as such.

Bravo.

 

[Perditions Ghost]

Very well put Dustin, very well put indeed.

I've previously stayed out of this topic, but on a morning such as this where I can't sleep, I might as well put in my side.

I indeed am one of the many who "test drive" an artist, by downloading, deleting, and buying. However, I rarely download more than one album per artist, unless it's an artist with a vast catalog and various styles throughout - if I like the one album, I'll delete the files and go and buy it. Depending on funds at the time, and what's available, I usually also buy a few other albums by the same band when I go to purchase the one I downloaded. If I don't like it, I delete it, and move on. Simple as that. I don't download and never buy - I know it's not my right to have any music I want, for free. My goal in life is to be in a band - I wouldn't want someone doing that to me.

Another reason I buy the albums, is because I love the artwork and I just NEED the tangible product in my hands. I've always been like that. I could (and have before!) sit and look at the hundreds of CDs I have, examining the artwork for hours on end. I love album artwork.

I also like being able to hear my music where my iPod does not go. I don't like burnt CDs - it's like I've got a tangible product, but not the tangible product. I usually only use my burner making various compilations for my friends to try out, always telling them to buy some shit afterwards. I like being able to put a CD in when I'm getting in the shower, or having music going in my stereo while I'm doing various things around my house. I know it's possible to hook up my iPod to the stereo, but I won't. I much prefer it this way.

I buy everything I can from an artist - CDs, singles, EPs, shirts, concert tickets, etc. And at festivals, I tend to overload on things. At New England Metal and Hardcore Fest this year, I bought God Dethroned's entire discography (minus The Grand Grimoire, which wasn't there when I came back with more money the 2nd day), and a hoodie - which was the only merch they were selling besides girlie tees because something messed up somehow and it was all that was sent over. The hoodie was normal price - somewhere between $45 and $50. (Fun fact, if I'm right, it was the only hoodie at the show, as I bought it not long after their merch went up (as I had previously asked the merch guy if there'd be any, and he said it'd be up in a few minutes) and I got the one off the wall. I didn't see ONE other person in the venue with it, and everyone I met was asking me where I got it. I think the merch guy also mentioned something along the lines of "They only brought one")

But, if you look at it, that means, in the span of two days, I spent a good $130 or $140 on ONE band. That does not include the other bands I bought stuff from over the weekend while a hardcore band was on (Thus leading to me visiting the vendor area quite often). A band that I wouldn't have liked otherwise, if I hadn't downloaded a copy of The Toxic Touch not long after its release and followed my usual method.

I know this doesn't apply to everyone, and there are plenty of people that aren't like me. But, that is my stance on things, and how I go about it.

 

[BlackRoseMetalHeart]

It looks like this thread is beginning to die down… (maybe?)

But before it does, I wanted to throw in my feelings on this being a musician who has to go to work every morning, pay a mortgage and support a family.

Dustin, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject. It was really great to hear the perspective of another musician. I know a few others have already posted on here, including Mike from Division, so I suppose I should really thank all the artists who have posted their thoughts on the subject.

… but when a fan hands me an ass gasket they grabbed out of the bathroom stall and say, “I love your stuff! I downloaded all your albums and totally dig you guys! If I had a CD I would have you sign it, but I don’t… but here’s an ass gasket to sign instead!” I have to wonder to myself… did they buy it or download a pirate version off a P2P?

I went to a Misfits show a few years ago (I think I was probably 20 or so at the time) and I was absolutely appalled at some 14 or 15 year old girl who actually asked Jerry Only to sign three burned mini-discs that she had brought with her. And then she had the nerve to ask him for an interview after he signed them. :Smug:

I just ordered your new CD from Nightmare Records last night. Love the tune I heard on the Nightmare Records sampler Lance was giving away at ProgPower. Slick vocals and with a classic prog metal feel. The sampler also promped me to pick up the new Vainglory from Nightmare.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with either. I picked up the new Vainglory at FotV earlier this year. (Can't remember if I got it at Lance's table or the bands table.) And for the record, I received the first Katagory V album as a free gift with a Kamelot girls shirt I purchased online prior to PPV. Since then, I have purchase every single one of Katagory V's albums from the Nightmare table at ProgPower and have enjoyed them all.

Also for the record, I bought the Kamelot shirt on e-Bay, and yes, I know that's not a great way to support a band directly, but at the time I don't believe Kamelot had any girlie tees on their web site. I then went on to purchase another girl's t-shirt and "Karma" when I saw them at PP that year and have since them bought multiple concert tickets and items of merchandise from them.

Dustin's quote about smiling when people bring cds to get signed makes me feel a whole lot better. Yes, I'm an asshole who when I see a band I'll bring all the cds and singles to get signed. But I have NEVER had an artist tell me "this is just too much shit I'm not signing it all."

When Nick and I went to FotV this year, he told me "Don't you dare take your entire catalog for Doro to sign." I didn't, but I probably still took more than I should, although I only asked her to sing about 4 items (out of about the 20 or 30 I have). As she was signing, I told her the story about what Nick had said to me about not bringing the entire catalog. When she finished with the two CD books and two DVD books, she handed them back to me, picked up a promotional postcard from the pile she had been carrying with her and asked (in her thick German accent ) "Would you like one of these?" I was almost speechless. Here I had just spoken to her about not wanting to make her sign too much, and she was offering to sign more items that she had brought with her. Of course I said yes. She then offered me the choice of "Black or silver" Sharpie to have it signed in. True class, just like the attitude that Dustin was speaking of.

l understand your need to have a tangible product...l've been there. Young people? Hmm...the younger population l come in contact with are my nephews & their multitude of friends...ages 14 - 24. They don't buy CDs. They download...
[...]
But, l can tell you...as l mentioned earlier...the young people l'm in contact with don't feel this way. It's not important to them to hold it...but they do want to hear it. And they will because they have the means.

For the record, I am 24 years old and have been collecting CDs since I was 12, and LPs since I was about 16. I don't see that changing for me anytime soon. Just because I have the means to go out and buy an iPod doesn't mean I'm going to, and just because someone has the means to steal from an artists doesn't mean they should.

Albums are pretty much a thing of the past. Now we're in the digital age. The way l see it adaptation means survival. But, there is a segment that will do their best to hold on for dear life. Dinosaurs.

That's why modern artist still put out music on LPs, right? That's why I see LPs that are classics going for $50-$100, sometimes more on e-Bay and the local record show that I go to once a month here where I live? That's why I can still purchase picture discs at places like Hot Topic (a mainstream store) as well as the local independent music chains in my area?

Anyone who knows anything about the quality of recorded music and analogue vs. digital recording will tell you that you get a different (and many I know would say fuller and better) sound from an LP than you do from any digital media file or CD, due to the fact that many of the dips and grooves that make the sound that comes of an LP cannot be converted into a digital format. Thus, you get a lot fuller, high-quality sound from a good LP, than you will ever get from a digital media file. I'm probably not explaining this in the best way, but talk to someone who is well educated in the subject like I did and you may be surprised. For these very reasons, I could envision LPs having the chance to stick around a lot longer than CDs and even *gasp* MP3s.

Another reason I buy the albums, is because I love the artwork and I just NEED the tangible product in my hands. I've always been like that. I could (and have before!) sit and look at the hundreds of CDs I have, examining the artwork for hours on end. I love album artwork.

I also like being able to hear my music where my iPod does not go. I don't like burnt CDs - it's like I've got a tangible product, but not the tangible product. I usually only use my burner making various compilations for my friends to try out, always telling them to buy some shit afterwards. I like being able to put a CD in when I'm getting in the shower, or having music going in my stereo while I'm doing various things around my house. I know it's possible to hook up my iPod to the stereo, but I won't. I much prefer it this way.

I buy everything I can from an artist - CDs, singles, EPs, shirts, concert tickets, etc.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I hope you won't be insulted), but you are somewhere in the 15-17 range, right? A young person who buys CDs and enjoys the tangible product - image that!

 

[Magius]

My Stepdaughter is 19, attends ProgPower, buys CD's, and has never download a song either legally or illegally.
It's pretty egocentric to think that because you think a certain way therefore most people do. Perhaps in time, a very long time, CD's will become obsolete, but it won't be anytime soon. The dinosaurs lasted over 150 million years btw.

 

[Perditions Ghost]

Correct me if I am wrong (and I hope you won't be insulted), but you are somewhere in the 15-17 range, right? A young person who buys CDs and enjoys the tangible product - image that!

Insult me? Never! Yeah, I'm 15.

Yeah, a young person who buys CDs and enjoys the tangible product.

 

[Ascension]

It's pretty egocentric to think that because you think a certain way therefore most people do. Perhaps in time, a very long time, CD's will become obsolete, but it won't be anytime soon. The dinosaurs lasted over 150 million years btw.

Me...egocentric? LOL...l guess you missed the part where l mentioned my nephews and their friends...ages 14 - 24...who don't buy cds...they d/l. It's not just me...it's the up & coming, soon to be college educated, white collar segment of the population they represent. One of my nephews just graduated UGA and will continue his education to be a dentist. He owns maybe 20 - 30 cds...he's not sure where they are located. But, he does download his music like there is no tomorrow from iTunes. He told me the majority of students on campus he came in contact with did the same. Considering this, l see the writing on the wall.

Yes...LPs are still sold. l'm sure the sales numbers for these is so small that they barely touch the radar screen. Can cds be far behind? Yes they'll linger for years...as l mentioned earlier consumers have been conditioned. But on that note, l know more people that don't own any vinyl of any kind than l do those that do.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

I know the ship has pretty much sailed on this issue, but I figured I'd throw my 2 bits in to the fire.

I'll fully admit that in the early days of Napster, I engaged in a little bit of downloading, especially as that was the only way at the time for me actually find music that I was interested in before spending good money to order it and wait for it to be shipped from Amazon (I still remember how I paid something like $35 to import a copy of Stratovarious' debut album, just so I had the complete collection of all their releases). I also remembered how much music I've downloaded from the hey-days of MP3.com (which I still have on my harddrive - nearly 10 years later!). It was not very much as I only had a dial-up account at the time. That was my earliest time when I started getting into this whole prog/power scene as I was pretty much, by that time, sick of the crap that was constantly being shoveled out on the mainstream broadcast radio. I wanted to find music that was reminiscent of the old Helloween and Iron Maiden and similar that I remember listening to when I was a kid, as well as along the lines of the Styx, Yes, Rush, Kansas, and so forth. Of course, when I heard "A Million Light Yeas Away" by Stratovarious on my then brand-new satellite hookup, I was blown away and realized that was what I wanted to listen to!

Fast forward some ten years later to today. I don't even bother with P2P or BitTorrent clients anymore. It is not worth the hassle. However, I do have and maintain an eMusic account these days and downloaded a ton of stuff off of there. Even then, when I really like something, I found I'd rather get the actual CD whenever possible or whenever I can find a copy.

To sum it up, I am definitely in the "try before I buy" camp. I've been burned to many times myself in the past with the "one or two good tracks but the rest is tripe" syndrome. And yes, I do try to avail myself of all the "official" avenues, via sampler disks, sample tracks, and so forth (as much as I loathe MySpace, though). Most of the time, I can often get a good idea if I like what I hear, but even then, there are times when I'd really like to listen to a bit more to get a better idea if I'd actually like it or not.

I went to a Misfits show a few years ago (I think I was probably 20 or so at the time) and I was absolutely appalled at some 14 or 15 year old girl who actually asked Jerry Only to sign three burned mini-discs that she had brought with her. And then she had the nerve to ask him for an interview after he signed them. :Smug:

I definitely agree that is wrong. Hell, at the very least, she could've bought a copy of the actual CD from the merch table and had him sign it.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with either. I picked up the new Vainglory at FotV earlier this year. (Can't remember if I got it at Lance's table or the bands table.) And for the record, I received the first Katagory V album as a free gift with a Kamelot girls shirt I purchased online prior to PPV. Since then, I have purchase every single one of Katagory V's albums from the Nightmare table at ProgPower and have enjoyed them all.

How the hell did I miss those? Looks like I'll be submitting an order to Lance in the near future. I was hoping at least Katagory V would've been on eMusic, though. At least Vainglory's 2050 album is on there. Pretty damn good!

When Nick and I went to FotV this year, he told me "Don't you dare take your entire catalog for Doro to sign." I didn't, but I probably still took more than I should, although I only asked her to sing about 4 items (out of about the 20 or 30 I have). As she was signing, I told her the story about what Nick had said to me about not bringing the entire catalog. When she finished with the two CD books and two DVD books, she handed them back to me, picked up a promotional postcard from the pile she had been carrying with her and asked (in her thick German accent ) "Would you like one of these?" I was almost speechless. Here I had just spoken to her about not wanting to make her sign too much, and she was offering to sign more items that she had brought with her. Of course I said yes. She then offered me the choice of "Black or silver" Sharpie to have it signed in. True class, just like the attitude that Dustin was speaking of.

I have an annoying tendency to forget to bring something to have the band sign. I end up usually having them sign my ticket stub like I did at the Stratovarious show. That ticket stub is safely stashed away in my copy of their Visions album (in my opinion, their best album ever!). Numerous times I ended up buying something from the merch table so I could have them sign it.

For the record, I am 24 years old and have been collecting CDs since I was 12, and LPs since I was about 16. I don't see that changing for me anytime soon. Just because I have the means to go out and buy an iPod doesn't mean I'm going to, and just because someone has the means to steal from an artists doesn't mean they should.

I am 38 and have been doing this for a very long time. One thing I've seem to be getting from some of these comments is that somehow owning an iPod or similar seems to be inherently "evil" or "wrong". I have an iPod, and in fact, I just recently upgraded to one of the new 160gig models. I am not ashamed of it, and in fact, I friggan love the thing. I find it very convenient to take my music on the road with me (that three day drive out to Wisconsin last summer). Is that my "sole" source of music? Hell no! At home, I much prefer to listen to my CD's in my home stereo. I don't use iTunes, much prefer using eMusic instead for my source of on-line music.

That's why modern artist still put out music on LPs, right? That's why I see LPs that are classics going for $50-$100, sometimes more on e-Bay and the local record show that I go to once a month here where I live? That's why I can still purchase picture discs at places like Hot Topic (a mainstream store) as well as the local independent music chains in my area?

Anyone who knows anything about the quality of recorded music and analogue vs. digital recording will tell you that you get a different (and many I know would say fuller and better) sound from an LP than you do from any digital media file or CD, due to the fact that many of the dips and grooves that make the sound that comes of an LP cannot be converted into a digital format. Thus, you get a lot fuller, high-quality sound from a good LP, than you will ever get from a digital media file. I'm probably not explaining this in the best way, but talk to someone who is well educated in the subject like I did and you may be surprised. For these very reasons, I could envision LPs having the chance to stick around a lot longer than CDs and even *gasp* MP3s.

I've been dabbling around in high-end audio for the past ten plus years or so. I personally still don't buy the argument that LPs are "better" than CDs in general. I've listened to some very high-end setups (costing well into the 10s of thousands of dollars - dare I say, some even into the 6 digits?). In many cases, we played recordings both on CD and LP. In many cases you could not even tell the difference on a properly setup stereo. In some cases, many found the CD recording to be better, and in other cases, it was the vice-versus. I personally like the convenience of the CD's better, but there is definitely some "romance" about putting a record on the turn-table. However, I do agree with the quality of MP3s though. MP3s for me is purely a convenience format for taking my music on the go (as well as test-listening to something), much like back in the days of cassettes. The records were great for listening to at home, but if I wanted to listen to it in the car, made a copy of it onto cassette.

BTW, there is a thread about this very topic going on in the Klipsch forums right now (in the "two-channel") section. And this is in a forum where many of these guys still use tube amplification on the big corner horns with some very nice turn-tables and CD players (far more expensive than you'll find in a typical Best Buy, Circuit City or Wal-Mart). I've listened to many of those very systems.

Last but not least (at the risk of getting into a battle of the legality of the whole thing, after all that is pretty much a horse with three hooves in the grave and the forth very shortly behind).

People can go on and on about how "illegal" downloading in and so and so forth and about "stealing" this and "stealing" that.

In the eyes of the law, this is not "theft" or "stealing", which is a criminal offense. This is "copyright infringement", which is actually a civil matter (thus even if I admitted to the FBI that I downloaded music off the internet, there is not a damn thing they could do.). Yes, you can spin it around as much as you want by saying something like "yeah, but it is still stealing in my mind, and blah, blah, blah), but that is not how the actual law works (although attempts have been made to change it, though).

Not only that, I've yet to see anything in the law to indicate that just simply "downloading" a file is even considered illegal in and of itself. Where people run afoul of the recording industry is when the make files available for "uploading" via the P2P or torrent sites. That is "unauthorized distribution", which again, is a "civil" matter. The law allows the copyright holder to sue for such much damages as a result of the unauthorized distribution. That is the recording industry is looking for civil damages. Nobody's been arrested or sent to jail for this. (Of course, this begs the question - I wonder how much of those settlements do the actual artists or anybody else that had direct input/involvement in the creation of a recording (i.e, the producer, the recording engineer, etc) actually sees, v.s. how much goes goes directly into the pockets of the RIAA lawyers).

This also begs that if I already own a copy of a recording, i.e., on a cassette tape or 8-track, am I still legally entitled to a copy downloaded for free off the net? My 8-track player died long ago, so not possible to make a direct recording into MP3, but still want to rightfully listen to something that I legally purchased. It seems that the fair use doctrine and the American Home Recording Act says I am. That is the same thing that allows people to make copies of CD's for the car, rip a CD for listening through an iPod and so forth, as much as the RIAA and their ilk does not like that ("to bad, just go buy another copy" is their official stance - don't believe me? Go read the RIAA's website).

Simply standing on a street corner and bitching, pissing, and moaning about how "illegal" it is and "how everybody is destroying the industry" is simply not going to make the problem go away. Demanding even more legislation or technological controls (read - DRM) is not going to make the problem go away either. It has been tried, and you see where that got us. It is like teaching a pig to sing. All you are going to do is piss off the pig and get frustrated, and yet still accomplish nothing. To be honest, I think Glenn probably put out the best suggestion yet with offering a low-bandwidth version for a couple bucks, with a partial refund toward purchase of the "full quality" CD or digital tracks. I would also so far to offer a suggestion of allowing the album to be streamed in a low-bandwidth/bitrate for free (although there will still be people that will use any number of tools that can record streamed audio). Thankfully, we are starting to see some of this come to fruition (i.e., I was able to preview that new Queensryche cover album as such).

Yes, people are still going to use and abuse the system and there will always be that large contingent that just simply won't give a shit, but do you just curl up and hide and hope the problem goes away? Do you just fold up your tents and say "fuck it?" Unfortunately, there are some that have. People will still create music. They have since the beginning of time and they will continue to do so, even though there was a fight over copyrights every time there was a shift in technology, all the way back into the days of player pianos more than 100 years ago (and books even before that going beyond just music). Yet, there still seems to be plenty of music being produced by plenty of folks despite all that (as well as books). I am still discovering new music by new artists. For example, I really did not hear of many of those artists that was posted in that initial post by Lance. I actually went and checked out some of them (yes, on the internet - imagine that!). I found that Seventh Wonder, for example, to be pretty damn good! I'll have to try to find a copy of their albums to buy.

However, that all being said, I do fully agree that simply downloading music wholesale for free and not even bothering to even attempt to find a way to compensate the creators is just simply "wrong". I also agree with that LoTFP stance that this is an "art form that must be respected". This is a two way street here. I've found out first hand after having going to many shows just how much many of these bands truly respect their fans. I think it is fair that us fans try our best to return that respect to the bands that we such much adore and enjoy.

I would hope that in the end, common sense would prevail, despite all the legal wrangling, and we all eventually come to some happy medium where artists get their just due and the fans still get to enjoy the music they love, however they see fit (whether it be on an MP3 player while working out, in the car while going to work, or sitting in front of their stereo just listening). It seems that is the case for the most part in our tiny little corner of the music scene.

 

[BlackRoseMetalHeart]

SkiBum, you make a lot fo very good points. Just so you know, I didn't mean for it to seem like I have a problem with others having MP3 players. They seem like great devices if you like MP3s and I don't want anyone to think that I think they are evil. Nick has one (although he generally only uses it on long trips like you) and I may very well break down and get one someday. I just haven't had the desire to but myself one yet (actually I think I have one on my phone but I haven't bothered to figure out how to use it).

And just to try to end on a happy note ...

It is like teaching a pig to sing. All you are going to do is piss off the pig and get frustrated, and yet still accomplish nothing.

That is the funniest thing that has been said this entire thread! I laughed so hard when I read that line and it does hold a lot of truth.