SocialNumb
Damn Christians!
Kinda OT but I can't imagine getting rich/wealthy with out doing a little dirt. Look at those in power.
People selling cracked plugins (WOW)
- Thread starter Joshua Wickman
- Start date
I just want to clarify that I should have put more in my post, I didn't intend to seem like I was advocating piracy in any way, shape or form. I was just trying to say what Shane said, in a way, and I fucked it up.
Carry on guys
Carry on guys
SocialNumb
Damn Christians!
seems like you missed a good bit of my post, where i expounded on the "new business model" idea. so everything you said to this point in your reply is not really relevant to what i was actually saying.
if you actually believe that then you not only have questionable judgment, but you've apparently also missed the last several years.... much of what you just said HAS been happening; bands recording cheap and self-releasing online. Show me one.... even one success story from that "business model". Only bands like NIN and Radiohead, that made it big on the back of the "old"/current label system are able to pull off successful internet marketing. everyone else is just minnows in the ocean, and have just about as much a chance of being discovered as one.
first sound thing you've said
funny, i feel the same towards you in this matter.... because optimism and excitement for the future, while just condoning piracy now, will NOT change anything... other than to make the situation worse, much worse, way before it gets better.
there will be change... but it will not be a sudden event.. it's going to be a long process... no matter how enthusiastic any of us are about it. in the meantime your favorite bands need to be able to afford to continue making records.
SocialNumb
Damn Christians!
Kazrog
Kazrog, Inc.
ThePirateBay trial rages on:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/02/piratebaywednes.html
I get the sense that the TPB guys will walk away from this without any sort of punishment. The frustrating part of this problem is that the people who represent the industry are rarely intelligent enough to raise points that are convincing or relevant. So this guy talks about chart positions and sales from a more mainstream perspective - how about the reality new artists face that they may never make any money from music - even though the pursuit of music consumes nearly infinite amounts of time and money. For filmmakers, the situation is just as bleak, because unless you can get your movie released theatrically, you stand almost no chance of profiting.
What if this guy had instead presented some actual data relevant to specific artists, showing exactly how piracy has destroyed the business? Why are music executives idiots? We need better representatives.
BitTorrent may be a fairly anonymous protocol, but it still relies on trackers - trackers that are VERY public and VERY visible via the web, run by individuals who can be found. If you set up a warez torrent tracker - you are the public face of the problem, and you are paying for bandwidth and server rack space SOMEWHERE and can be tracked down. They were able to find TPB guys, they can find anyone. What needs to happen to kill off this kind of piracy is to hunt down every torrent tracker out there - IsoHunt, Mininova, etc. and put all of them on trial. Nobody will want to run warez torrent trackers after enough court battles are going on.
The reality is, there's older and more underground ways to pirate things on the internet - but most of these are not user friendly enough or widespread enough to gain the kind of traction that BitTorrent has. It's also important to note that BitTorrent is great software, and that it has many legit purposes, such as creating cheaper distribution for companies who do things like develop Linux distros and other open source software. BitTorrent itself is not the problem - it's irresponsible trackers like TPB and IsoHunt whose SOLE PURPOSE is piracy.
Make no mistake - TPB and other trackers make mad amounts of money from advertising - if they weren't profiting, they wouldn't be doing it. They are no better than the idiots trying to sell pirated software on Craigslist - just smarter.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/02/piratebaywednes.html
I get the sense that the TPB guys will walk away from this without any sort of punishment. The frustrating part of this problem is that the people who represent the industry are rarely intelligent enough to raise points that are convincing or relevant. So this guy talks about chart positions and sales from a more mainstream perspective - how about the reality new artists face that they may never make any money from music - even though the pursuit of music consumes nearly infinite amounts of time and money. For filmmakers, the situation is just as bleak, because unless you can get your movie released theatrically, you stand almost no chance of profiting.
What if this guy had instead presented some actual data relevant to specific artists, showing exactly how piracy has destroyed the business? Why are music executives idiots? We need better representatives.
BitTorrent may be a fairly anonymous protocol, but it still relies on trackers - trackers that are VERY public and VERY visible via the web, run by individuals who can be found. If you set up a warez torrent tracker - you are the public face of the problem, and you are paying for bandwidth and server rack space SOMEWHERE and can be tracked down. They were able to find TPB guys, they can find anyone. What needs to happen to kill off this kind of piracy is to hunt down every torrent tracker out there - IsoHunt, Mininova, etc. and put all of them on trial. Nobody will want to run warez torrent trackers after enough court battles are going on.
The reality is, there's older and more underground ways to pirate things on the internet - but most of these are not user friendly enough or widespread enough to gain the kind of traction that BitTorrent has. It's also important to note that BitTorrent is great software, and that it has many legit purposes, such as creating cheaper distribution for companies who do things like develop Linux distros and other open source software. BitTorrent itself is not the problem - it's irresponsible trackers like TPB and IsoHunt whose SOLE PURPOSE is piracy.
Make no mistake - TPB and other trackers make mad amounts of money from advertising - if they weren't profiting, they wouldn't be doing it. They are no better than the idiots trying to sell pirated software on Craigslist - just smarter.
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
definitely! I agree that we are in a bit of a depression right now. But we are talking metal here, which is a fairly underground genre relatively speaking.
most of my fav. bands are getting by, and accept the fact they won`t be millionaires from playing this type of music.
but i understand that you are saying its hard to pay the bills, and the artists should be getting more!
but the fans have been ripped off for years! cd`s have been waaaay too expensive, and downloading is a result of that.
really the labels are to blame for ripping off the artists and the fans for years! it sucks that the artists have to suffer, but in the long run it will change things for the better.
lets be optimistic!
and do what we can to be a part of history!I bought the abigail williams cd by the way, and it sounds great!
ha ha ha.. no the hell it isn't... even if CDs cost $5 each, a great many people would still download... most still would i'd wager.
and you know this because....? i've been ripped off a number of times, but usually by the bands i was playing with, not the labels. i've heard over and over again that Roadrunner rips off bands.... ha, i STILL get royalty checks from them. this kind of knee-jerk spouting of popular myth does nothing to further the issue. yes, you can get ripped off in the music business.... there are contracts and legalese involved, so sure.. if you don't protect yourself and watch after your own interests you can get ripped off. exactly the same as every other business. this isn't just a business issue either... it's a human nature issue, and it's why we have lawyers and contracts for literally ever possible type of agreement that you can imagine
yeah i know there are many historical precedents... but the majority of them involve contract disputes... in these situations you only get ripped off if you don't protect yourself or if you simply fail to be watchful of your own interest and/or follow through with the recourse provided in the contracts. The majority of the people i hear using this excuse... that [all] labels rip off their bands.... say it with the confidence of someone who's been there and done that, and know what they are talking about from the inside out.... but they haven't. never been signed, never been on a label or worked for a label, and heard this standard gossip 3rd, 4th, or 5th hand or even further.. yeah, you can get ripped off in any business, and the music biz is rife with scumbags... but so are many others... you are only vulnerable to them if you leave yourself vulnerable to them. this usually is the case for many many new bands that don't cover their asses well, and/or are unprepared or unable to follow through with legal action if necessary. tell you what, try licensing or selling an invention to a company.... same story. you have to protect yourself and be prepared to follow through with the legal recourse you negotiate to be at your disposal in your contract. that's business. otherwise, go it on your own. i do not know of one single band that ever had a gun put to their head to sign a record deal.... but over and over again i've heard bands that just simply didn't do well make unfounded claims of being "ripped off".
back to CD price, i just bought the new God Forbid and the new Lamb of God CDs at FYE in the mall near me... $11.99 each and another 10% off the whole transaction with my discount card.... what's the rip-off there?? both releases came with bonus discs and nice packaging... so where's the rip off? God Forbid recently re-signed to their label.... if they felt "ripped off" i doubt they'd have done that.
this spouting of spurious "data" you seem to be so certain of is more than just a bit self-serving in nature if you're gonna be totally honest. sure there are legit cases of "rip-offs" , just as there are in every other business there is. protect yourself as best you can legally, then be prepared to back it up. beyond that, no one is forcing anyone to take the money and sign on the dotted line.
if you truly want to be pro-active, then let's hear about how you will use your $$ (put your money where your mouth is) to improve the situation..... simply engaging in piracy with a happy-go-lucky smile on your face about it is helping nothing. And again, your claim that "in the long run it [piracy] will change things for the better" is a platitude that will do no more than extend the problems of the industry, not speed the path to their solutions.it sucks that the artists have to suffer, but in the long run it will change things for the better.
lets be optimistic!
thanks, i know i can speak for both of us when i say that Ken and I both appreciate it, and now when your hard-drive/iPod takes a shit you'll be able to whip it out and reload it.
egan.
daylightdies.com
I was tempted to comment on this myself. I have heard a lot of horror stories about labels some of which I have been involved with (the labels, not the stories). What I can tell everyone for sure is two things:
1. It costs a lot of money and time to sign bands, make records, negotiate with distributors, promote records, help organize tours, etc. etc. Lots more than people outside seem to realize. I think most outsiders and folks who promote the "just give it away" model fail to realize how much effort is put in by even the smallest labels on the smallest releases.
2. 99% of the people I've met at record labels could make a lot more money doing something else and are in it b/c they love music. Most of them work extremely hard for little monetary reward.
That's not to say that music isn't a scummy business-- it is. But most of the shittiest deals are things that you literally sign up for.
Labels have caused me a lot of consternation over the years but ultimately I owe many of the greatest opportunities I've had to them so it's hard to hold a grudge.
Ultimately I fail to see how forcing music into the 100% home studio --->myspace plan is more beneficial to anyone-- the musicians or the listeners.
this is as a result of the current state of the industry. and I think it kicks ass!
I feel that record prices were too high in the 90`s, when I happened to have purchased the most albums!
those albums would have cost 20 - 25 bucks in the 90`s!
And FTR I`m not one of those people who pirate all kinds of music, and dont feel bad about it! I just dont have as much HAET for those who do...
As an artist (hopefully in the future I will be more successful) I am facing this issue as well. I am putting my heart and soul (money is not that big of a deal to me) into this medium, and I do hope to be appreciated and supported in doing so!
and I keep hearing of all kinds of new kick ass bands... whats the problem????
definitely not! I just think that records are really over priced for what they are.
I think we need more people in the business who do it for the love of the music. not for the monetary gains. It is art after all.
egan.
daylightdies.com
I ran into a friend of mine at a 6am stagehand call 2 days after his band got off the road with disturbed. I've known plenty of guys in there 30's that still live with their parents. 90% of the guys I know in 'successful' bands have jobs. It's next to impossible to be in an original band just for the money. The tr00 kvlt vs. sellout thing is total bullshit. I promise. 99.9% are in it for the love of music first and foremost. The vast majority just want to make enough to keep making music-- to have monetary income that actually corresponds to the listenership.
Kazrog
Kazrog, Inc.
Almost everyone I know in a successful band has to work a day job and/or lives with their parents. Even Lamb Of God, the top band in metal in the USA has just barely gotten to the point where they have been able to quit day jobs.
Well dare I say there's a pretty big line between working a day job and living with one's parents
... and yet it's so often not there in the case of musicians.
Egan and Kazrog have it right... the disparity between what most guys who haven't been in the music business think about what goes on and the the actual reality of it is huge.... and in so few other possible endeavors in life do otherwise rational people form such strong and harsh opinions regarding how to conduct themselves on the periphery and/or consumer end of it.
Egan and Kazrog have it right... the disparity between what most guys who haven't been in the music business think about what goes on and the the actual reality of it is huge.... and in so few other possible endeavors in life do otherwise rational people form such strong and harsh opinions regarding how to conduct themselves on the periphery and/or consumer end of it.
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