Please help me pick my favorite speaker! (and sorry Lasse, but you're wrong :D)

[Metaltastic]

So I had always felt that where the speakers in a slant cab were mounted (top row or bottom) made a difference, though Lasse once disagreed - perhaps he's changed his tune since then, but if not, I think he will now! I mic'ed the bottom two speakers of my Recto cab separately, then opened it up, flipped them all over (without having to unsolder any of them fortunately, I just unscrewed 'em, picked up two, my Dad grabbed the other two, and we shuffled around the cab until they were reversed), and mic'ed the other two speakers in the bottom position. Then, I mic'ed the first two while they were in the top row, and the difference is very noticeable IMO! However, the main purpose of this test was to decide which V30s I like, so if you guys could pick your top 2 (cuz they're both going in the bottom, naturally ), I would really appreciate it!

And yes, for awhile I too couldn't believe it, but they REALLY do sound this different - I was obsessive over making the mic placement as close as possible, and I've done two other tests comparing 1 and 2 (here and here), and in both cases the results were the same!

So...

V30 1.mp3
V30 2.mp3
V30 3.mp3
V30 4.mp3

As well as...

V30 1 Top.mp3
V30 2 Top.mp3

And finally, all of them in a zip file for those who prefer that (me, for anyone else's future reference )

And I included drums because how they sound in a mix is what matters most to me!

EDIT: And here are the guitar files by themselves:

V30 1 GTRS.mp3
V30 1 Top GTRS.mp3
V30 2 GTRS.mp3
V30 2 Top GTRS.mp3
V30 3 GTRS.mp3
V30 4 GTRS.mp3

 

[Ermz]

V30 1 is most definitely my favourite. Both in the bottom AND top positions, though I think I prefer the top. After that it's 4, which is a bit dull but thankfully kills the fizz a bit. Trailing that is 3, and finally 2 in both positions, which sounds the most fizzy and practice amp-like out of all.

Nice shoot-out! Switching positions most certainly does make a difference. I have to say I'm glad that you have the free time to do this stuff man. There's always squabbling until someone does a concrete shoot-out and puts everything in its place *cue: the gearslutz guys complaining about how shoot-outs aren't 'real world' enough and should be discarded in favor of their biased, geriatric whining*

PS: I listened again. Speakers mounted top sound better, without a doubt. More even frequency response, less crazy peaks and most importantly less obnoxious fizz!

 

[Metaltastic]

Really? 4 to me is wayyyyy too muffled, you may hate the fizz but IMO it's necessary for cut! And you prefer V30 1 in the top over the bottom? Polar opposite here again, to me it's so much fuller in the bottom, and the pitch is much more defined (which of course is key). FWIW, my favorites are 1 and 3, hard to really pick which of the two I like most though (I think once I get a second 57 and blend 'em ooooh mama is it gonna pwn!). But at least we can agree 2 is the worst! (AKA BL in my other two tests I linked to above, where it was also universally despised )

And yeah dude, I fucking despise people talking out of their asses (especially stupid guitarists defending their shitty gear) when they can't provide clips to prove it, so I take it upon myself to always put my money where my mouth is!

 

[Metaltastic]

Oh, and of course, thanks a lot for listening dude!

 

[Ermz]

I totally agree 4 is way too muffled, but in honesty I would take a muffled sound over a fizzy one any day... reason being muffled ones are much easier to EQ into shape in a mix than fizzy ones. I look for what sounds like an even frequency response and smooth mids. A bit of dullness or mud in the low-mids isn't much of a trade-off because it can be tightened up after the fact.

You don't need fizz to cut through in a mix. You need strong mids. If you boost the 'air' with a more linear, studio-quality EQ afterward you will get a more pleasant high-end than mic'ing more on axis, or cranking the presence or whatever. It's all a balance, but you most certainly don't need fizz to cut through in a mix.

The reason I prefer the Top speakers, even though they sound a bit more distant is because I'm picturing the mix after the bass comes in. You don't need a guitar sound that's 'large' by itself. Most of the time this just leads to trouble down the track. It's ALL about the mids... all of it. That's where the guitars live.

Thanks again for doing the shoot-out! Was really cool to listen to. And surprisingly easy to draw conclusions quickly!

 

[Metaltastic]

My pleasure man! And also, I think it comes down to the fact that you and I have very different tastes in tones (e.g. you actually like the tones on "Clayman" and especially "Sweet Vengeance", whereas I really dig "The Apostasy" ), but I always really appreciate your perspective and insight! That said, I don't think it's particularly likely I'll be going for the top speakers any time soon

 

[Ermz]

..maybe when you do another set of Nebula programs at least..? please? haha.

I totally dig that we have different tastes in tones, I think that much goes without saying by now. But I think if you just listen to 90% of metal or rock records out there you will see some grain of truth in what I'm saying. Even if we take 'The Apostasy', it's not a ferociously fizzy tone that one... it has a bit of fuzz to it, but I think that's just fundamental to the amps/pedals/whatever they used. There are no obnoxious peaks in the high-end or high mids that need notching out. I mean yeah, it'd be a cold day in hell when I shoot for a tone like that, but I can respect its ability to work in the mix all the same.

FWIW my main metal reference record for years was 'Doomsday Machine' which has some pretty grainy stuff going on in the high mids. I dug the tone for its ability to cut through the mix, despite not liking it as a guitarist. It's just about perspective. I'm sure on some level our taste in tones could meet eye to eye, but we'd probably need to neutralize a lot of outside factors.

 

[Metaltastic]

And I'm totally open to the possibility that my tastes might drastically change once I finally get a bass and start trying to cram it in!

EDIT: However, listening to the solo guitars in the beginning of "Be Without Fear" (from The Apostasy), it sounds like there's a pretty sizeable amount of fizz there! (which of course gets swallowed up when the shit starts a'flyin')

 

[Charles J]

And I'm totally open to the possibility that my tastes might drastically change once I finally get a bass and start trying to cram it in!

Good insight bro. This is the key right here. I'll agree with Ermz and say my fave is definitely V30 1 in the top position. It sounds good in the bottom position as well, but once you throw some gnarly bass in there, it sounds like the tone would be occupying too many frequencies that the bass would be trying to fill up.

Good tone though, I love the squishy quality recto's possess.

EDIT: What you should try to do is throw down some ghetto bass (and process it accordingly) and eq/compress/sample replace your drums (using some of the great samples provided by other members of the board) to get a better hand on how these tones ARE going to work in your mix.

 

[Ermz]

And I'm totally open to the possibility that my tastes might drastically change once I finally get a bass and start trying to cram it in!

EDIT: However, listening to the solo guitars in the beginning of "Be Without Fear" (from The Apostasy), it sounds like there's a pretty sizeable amount of fizz there! (which of course gets swallowed up when the shit starts a'flyin')

You're right, which is partly why I feel that the sound of that album is let down. It isn't really 'peaky' fizz though, if you know what I mean. There isn't anything obnoxious at 5 or 8k poking through. It is still fairly 'dull' fizz (which I guess in my mind translates to 'fuzz').

But anyway, this is why I tend to prefer the tone at the start of say... 'Before the Aeons Came'. Comparing the two back to back I have to say that 'Aeons' is better by just about every benchmark I have for tone, both as guitarist and engineer.

 

[grywolf627]

V30 1 is most definitely my favourite. Both in the bottom AND top positions, though I think I prefer the top. After that it's 4, which is a bit dull but thankfully kills the fizz a bit. Trailing that is 3, and finally 2 in both positions, which sounds the most fizzy and practice amp-like out of all...

Marcus, I have to go along with Ermz here. This pretty much sums up exactly what I was thinking, for the same reasons. Although I'm still not sure if I prefer top or bottom the most. I'd know better when trying to put it in a full mix.

Nice song idea, by the way!

 

[Metaltastic]

Good insight bro. This is the key right here. I'll agree with Ermz and say my fave is definitely V30 1 in the top position. It sounds good in the bottom position as well, but once you throw some gnarly bass in there, it sounds like the tone would be occupying too many frequencies that the bass would be trying to fill up.

Good tone though, I love the squishy quality recto's possess.

EDIT: What you should try to do is throw down some ghetto bass (and process it accordingly) and eq/compress/sample replace your drums (using some of the great samples provided by other members of the board) to get a better hand on how these tones ARE going to work in your mix.

Oh yeah, believe me, I make no claims as to the quality of these drums, it's the same half-assed "original DFH samples loaded into Battery" setup I've been using for years (all pirated), and I've vowed to not make any effort to improve it so I'll be that much more inclined to buy SSD 3.0 EX! And way ahead of ya on sample collecting Thanks for listening and the comments dude! But the thing about the top speakers that really bothers me is the pitch seems to be so much less perceptible (Ermz, your use of the word "distant" is spot-on), which is absolutely unacceptable to a riffster like me!

Mark, thanks a lot man! And yup, this was my "ode to 'Sons of Northern Darkness'" riff from my last band (oh how I've learned since I engineered those songs )

 

[Metaltastic]

And wow, I just realized I've surpassed your post count Ermz, the final hurdle to cementing my status as the ultimate Sneap Forum nerd

 

[Ermz]

Haha, I think you've had that mantle for a while now dude. My post count had 3 years head start on you!

 

[Metaltastic]

Oh much worse than that, since I registered in '05, posted like 10 times, and then didn't come back until like May '07!

 

[Habsburgs]

I think Ermz is right... Your tone is kinda unbalanced and harsh and is missing that "fuzz" that guitar tones have. The fuzz is not treble.. is more like a balance between everything. Try using different settings.. How was your amp eq'd?
My tone sucks anyway haha

Source: Moggs.

 

[Metaltastic]

Umm, well I'm not sure Ermz ever said that about my tone, but thanks for the feedback all the same! I've been working for awhile on tweaking the amp and am pretty happy with what I've got:

Treble: 11:30
Mid: 9:30
Bass: 10:30
Presence: 12:00

Bear in mind there's no bass here; I think that would add quite a bit of fuzz! (especially duplicated and run through a TS7, oh yeah ) But of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I always appreciate hearing 'em! And what is Moggs?

 

[Habsburgs]

Sorry ! What I was trying to say is that I agree with Ermz's view on guitar tones and the Fizz vs Fuzz thing hehe. Im not saying that your tone is bad.. or trying to change Ermz's words to make you belive that.
IMHO your tone is good.. but I dont know why it has that harsh sound.. it could be the too much treble or little bass.
Moggs are multitracks.

Try: Treble: 1:30 / 2:00
Mid: 9:30 / 9:00
Bass: 1:30 / 2:00
Presence: 12:00 ? IDK

Lower the Master volume. ?

Do you have the Dual Rec Manual?

I dont thing Bass is gonna add Fuzz or Sizzle..

 

[Keregioz]

In my opinion, with the exception of "V30 4" (too muffled) and "V30 2" (too fizzy), they are all pretty good and usable tones. I'm not sure which I prefer, I'll go with "V30 3" for now which is a little more harsh and I imagine it would sit better in a full mix.
I totally agree that you should start adding bass guitar to your samples since it obviously makes a difference and I believe you will find that some minor changes need to be made to your tones to fit in a full mix.

 

[::XeS::]

It would be cool to hear guitars-only files.