Protesting the War

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Sepsis

Brutal
Jul 22, 2004
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Hello my friends!

I've read that 'Protest Against the war' thing and I wish to posit my own views on the subject, and this place offers a better venue to discuss, I think. So anyway, here's my view:

I have literally cried myself to sleep after seeing all the footage that came from Iraq/Afghanistan/pretty much anywhere in the middle east. I saw the nameless bodies exhumed from mass graves. I saw the decapitation videos that the terrorists are now fond of releasing. I saw the torture videos of people being whipped, beaten, having their hands/tongues cut off, heving their bones broken, being thrown off of buildings, etc. I saw mutilated bodies dangling from bridges. I saw video of the aftermath when Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds. It is very clear that there was a war being waged by the terrorists and dictators against innocent civilians. Also sickening is the fact that these monsters have continually invoked the name of our good and merciful God to justify themselves, to justify blowing themselves up on buses filled with women and children.

I think that by our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, by toppling the brutal regimes that ran those countries, we have saved countless lives, and helped to assuage untold suffering. It seems wrong to stand around and watch our brothers and sisters suffer and die at the hands of villains such as Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

I don't, however, think that we went into Iraq or Afghanistan for its humanitarian virtue. To quote Michael Moore: "Obviously those who choose our wars don't care much about liberating people from oppressive regimes - if they did, we'd be kicking the s*** out of half the world." There is still a great deal of suffering in the world: children being forced to work in diamond mines to fund terrorist operations - and being deprived of limbs or life if they don't; the tens of thousands of people dying in Sudan; the abject poverty and suppression of the people of North Korea. No amount of reasoning will appeal to the ruthless dictators who oppress these nations - just as no amount of reasoning brought down Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot. Such people do not respect reason; they respect force. I know that ALL war is evil, but often there are greater evils - such as doing nothing about the suffering of our brothers and sisters all over the world.

I hope you all enjoyed that; it was the most coherent thing I could write in half an hour.

God Bless,
Sepsis
 
think that by our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, by toppling the brutal regimes that ran those countries, we have saved countless lives, and helped to assuage untold suffering. It seems wrong to stand around and watch our brothers and sisters suffer and die at the hands of villains such as Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.
You are SO wrong
 
I don't know, IOfTheStorm.

I am halfway around the world from Iraq, so I can't pass final jugdement, but from what I have seen on the news, read in countless articles, and simply by virtue of the fall of Hussein's regime, things in Iraq are looking up. It is very far from perfect, granted; but we are slowly and surely undoing all the damage that Hussein did. The torture chambers and rape rooms are out of commission, there are democratic elections taking place, and the head honchos of the Baathist regime are going to face justice. The terrorists have come out of the woodwork, though, because the last thing they need is for people to be in control of their own fate. From what I understand Afghanistan is getting better as well.

God bless,
Sepsis
 
Almost every day more than 10 people are killed in Iraq. Some days there are many more than 10. Saddam was of course a brutal dictator, but he did not execute 10 people per day. Find out how many people died because of the war .. 5 Saddams would be better than this war. EVERY other solution is better than a war.
 
please brother
i knowyou know why I said that :)
I think that each side has a covincind idea but ifyou wanna make a change you should find the common ground, not the arguement.
 
I agree Sepsis. Even though I fucking hate war, sometimes something must be done. How much terrorism, suffering, torture have resulted from the middle east conflicts? The U.S. steps in to do something about it (regardless of their motives) and they (we)are called terrorists! what if we, the worlds biggest power, isolated ourselves and helped no one? do you really think everyone would be satisfied? we are damned if we do, damned if we don't!

the only way to bring peace to the world is instill democaracy and topple dictatorship. People want results right away but it'll take years, at least we are doing something!

This world can be a very cruel and aweful place, I only hope some day we can all live in peace.
 
I'd say, there was nothing to do which would be 100% right in this situation except maybe going back in time and reparing many years' faults. All this terrorism, suffering and torture would not have resulted, if years ago the wrong people hadn't been helped in a wrong way for a wrong motive...
A motive that is clear to everyone since long time!
If they really always wanted only to help the people in the oppressed countries, they would have done it an other way. War, aggression, weapons and destruction do not bring peace, but hate and again war.
War against Iraq had nothing to do with septembers terrorist attacks, as Hussein didn't have anything to do with Laden. Without to mention Gulf War, etc, etc, etc. Extreme solution to get what you want and try not to lose image is not right.
People should learn from history! A perfect solution doesn't exist, but You can guess about consequences of some actions by logical thinking and memory of the past.
Everytime that Europe or U.S. were playing the bosses of the world, all that was resulting was war and years of conflicts. Intervention, OK, but not in a way in that you know you'll create yourself only ennemies...
A perfect solution doesn't exist, but you can always find a better one, even if it's impossible that everyone is satisfied.
By doing things the way they have been done, not only we lost respect of those people, but also from the saviors we became their ennemies.
Not only hundreds of people died there for nothing, also people in the U.S. and Europe are in danger now, those people who were against this war from the beginning and had protested it, innocent people are dying every day, others are afraid to go out of their houses, and for the moment things are getting worse every day. Those responsible are of course well protected and nothing risks to happen to them (as usually).
Noone is perfect an everyone makes mistake, but the higher is someone's position, the more consequences a decision will have, the more he should have the conscience of what he's doing, and take the responsibility for his acting and his mistakes.

I was against this war as well as You and millions other people, and if I damned You for what is happening I should in a way also damn myself. I'd like that my children could have a peaceful life. That's not fair that normal people all over the world are in danger cause someone incompetent has power he's not able to deal with.
Bush didn't give a f**k about the will of his nation.
He and his friends and collaborators who weren't able to defend U.S. from the terrorist attacks (they could easily have avoided it!), as well as those european heads who supported him and the war are to blame.
Showing to other people that something's wrong by doing exactly the same will never work, and that's clear.

Well, that's for my opinion (for the moment). Sorry but I just cannot understand why this all has to happen...
 
insidethefall said:
I agree Sepsis. Even though I fucking hate war, sometimes something must be done. How much terrorism, suffering, torture have resulted from the middle east conflicts? The U.S. steps in to do something about it (regardless of their motives) and they (we)are called terrorists! what if we, the worlds biggest power, isolated ourselves and helped no one? do you really think everyone would be satisfied? we are damned if we do, damned if we don't!

the only way to bring peace to the world is instill democaracy and topple dictatorship. People want results right away but it'll take years, at least we are doing something!

This world can be a very cruel and aweful place, I only hope some day we can all live in peace.

I am in full agreement...
 
IOfTheStorm said:
War breeds more war, you fools
You say this because you feel safe - you live in a country where there is no turmoil, no terrorism, no bombs going off on buses, etc...

Did you ever think for a moment that if everyone (except the radical muslim groups) were pacifist, we all just sat there and did nothing. We would all be wearing long robes, big beards, worshipping Allah (nothing wrong with that if you willingly choose to) but we would regress as a society.

This War belongs to the victors who will make the rules. All in the middle east who oppose it are brainwashed into believing that being free is a christian idea and therefore is evil. Everyone else who opposes it believes in some utopia that will never happen if everyone is enslaved.

it's a little more complex than 'War breeds more War'
 
No its not. Your country became a dangerous place, because of its actions. Its not that someone woke up one day and said "oh lets make terrorism actions in u.s.a.". Look at history, and see how EVERYTIME a third world country had problems with another third world country (not only in Asia, but in Africa too), a "big power" (call that big power usa, england, france etc) appeared as a "savior" only to make things worse.
Did you ever think for a moment that if everyone (except the radical muslim groups) were pacifist, we all just sat there and did nothing. We would all be wearing long robes, big beards, worshipping Allah
This is one of the most ridiculus things you say. Muslim countries (except Turkey) NEVER had a "conqueror attitude" as YOUR country has all the time (for many reasons).
This War belongs to the victors who will make the rules. All in the middle east who oppose it are brainwashed into believing that being free is a christian idea and therefore is evil. Everyone else who opposes it believes in some utopia that will never happen if everyone is enslaved.
Thats even more ridiculus. So if someone becomes more powerfull than u.s.a., he make war with you and therefore be victorius and then he can make the rules. Is that how the world shall work? Your thoughts are seriously dangerous. You speak of things that have no substance ("all in the middle east think that being free is a christian idea and therefore dangerous"). Wake up and see that western countries' actions are responsible for all the major war events in the world.
And of course i feel safe. My country never cared to burn to the ground another country in order to exploit it (like your country did).
 
STOP IT YOU GUYS!!!
You're ruin everything that this forum is build on...certainly Orphaned Land does not deserve a thread like this were people are arguing over this kind of subject...if you don't respect all the others in here writing, then respect OL...
I'm 100% with you Avi...please close this thread...
 
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