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That's some grade A fatlogic there. That's like saying if you like hair on a woman's head, why not beards?

I don't see how that term implies non-whites belonging to a certain class. It's an identity-- just how white American or what have you can be an identity. The idea of not seeing color is kind of ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with seeing race and colors, it's part of who people are and how they identify themselves. The problem lies only when others take it to treat other people differently or less than because of it.

But how can non-white be an identity? That's like calling non-metal a genre of music. It's not equivalent to white American, which is for the most part well defined, encompassing people of European descent. It's not like you would check a box labeled "person of color" on a census form.

Moreover, that's not the only thing wrong with the term. It simply doesn't make sense; everyone has a color. If by color they mean a high level of melanin, it still doesn't make sense when East Asian people are considered "people of color."
 
I don't see how that term implies non-whites belonging to a certain class. It's an identity-- just how white American or what have you can be an identity. The idea of not seeing color is kind of ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with seeing race and colors, it's part of who people are and how they identify themselves. The problem lies only when others take it to treat other people differently or less than because of it.

The term "colored" was initially used to refer to people who are not white, and not in a nice way. It implies non-whites belong to a certain class because it refers to all of them as separate from white people. Where's the term for all people who are not black, or not east Asian, or not Pakistani?

It's not an identity. It's a PC term used that carries old Eurocentricity that backed racism. The idea that white people are special and everyone else is different.

Sure, there are no more white only signs and what have you but that doesn't mean that everything is great. It's more aggravating where you live in a world and interact with people from all sorts of backgrounds and culture and with information readily available, and people still choose to be disrespectful and offensive when they really should know/understand better.

I don't think everything's great, but I'd definitely take ignorance about cultures over not being allowed by law to use things because of the color of one's skin. Not that I think it's okay to be ignorant, but I'm not going to react with offense to someone asking if we speak Mexican in Colombia. I'll just correct them and move on with my life because someone saying something stupid is better than them trying to take my rights.

Sure there are other bigger issues but I do believe much of the "bigger issues" we have today stem from this same problem of people just not being respectful of others.

Which is exactly why I think breath is wasted on going for race. The root cause of people being shitty to each other is independent of that, but I don't see social justice types really caring. It's how white people do this, or men do that. They care more about secondary things like race, gender, and sexuality and ignore the human part because paying attention to the human part would make them realize that problems in society are more complicated than white people oppressing "people of color" or men oppressing women. It may even make them realize that they're not the best people themselves because they may treat their family, or waiters, or neighbors, or even individuals they believe to be oppressive like shit.
 
But how can non-white be an identity? That's like calling non-metal a genre of music. It's not equivalent to white American, which is for the most part well defined, encompassing people of European descent. It's not like you would check a box labeled "person of color" on a census form.

Moreover, that's not the only thing wrong with the term. It simply doesn't make sense; everyone has a color. If by color they mean a high level of melanin, it still doesn't make sense when East Asian people are considered "people of color."


Okay, well to be fair and honest there is some sort of hierarchy in race in almost everywhere you go. Do I think the term people of color support the hierarchy? No because the term itself is just a term. & when using it here in America it applies because we are surrounded and live amongst a variety of different people. However, it's not as literal as saying the term means people who are darker or whatever, it just encompasses anyone who isn't or cannot pass for what is considered or known as white. East Asian features… well, you would never mistake an East Asian for white, right? So it is deeper than just color. It's facial features, it's religion, it's accents, it's basically anything that is different from and what we understand "white" to be.

It depends on what you're talking about. Sometimes you are trying to refer to people who listen to metal and people who do not listen to metal as separate groups. What else are you suppose to call them? You wouldn't check "person of color" on a census form but people who are really mixed identify as "person of color" because it is general. Also, from what i understand, it's used to recognize (and in a way bring solidarity to) the experiences of non-whites (Arabs, Asians (South and East), Blacks, Hispanics etc etc) as it would just be redundant having to repeat every single race all the time when talking about these experiences on a whole.

Not to say white is not a color or that whites do not go through their own ordeals, but living in America (or any Western country) it is more likely for someone who is non-white to face structural discrimination i.e. not getting a job somewhere, not getting that apartment in that nice neighborhood despite being a good citizen and being able to afford it, or just sly comments of you not having the ability as they do and you getting where you are because of AA are things "people of color" face more often.
 
The term "colored" was initially used to refer to people who are not white, and not in a nice way. It implies non-whites belong to a certain class because it refers to all of them as separate from white people. Where's the term for all people who are not black, or not east Asian, or not Pakistani?

It's not an identity. It's a PC term used that carries old Eurocentricity that backed racism. The idea that white people are special and everyone else is different.

It is an identity. People from the islands aren't always "black" "native" or what have you. They have Indians, Chinese, Blacks, Whites, etc and they all mix with each other and share culture together. Maybe in their own islands they talk shit, but when they come to America they have that solidarity that they come from this specific island and they are from whatever that island is even though they recognize they maybe have different ancestors from different parts of the world. They recognize they aren't "white" and that they are "of color" from island X. Language changes. It could mean something one time and mean something else another time. I don't understand why people cannot reuse that to mean just that - people from all over the world that is not white? How is that perpetrating anything?

I don't think everything's great, but I'd definitely take ignorance about cultures over not being allowed by law to use things because of the color of one's skin. Not that I think it's okay to be ignorant, but I'm not going to react with offense to someone asking if we speak Mexican in Colombia. I'll just correct them and move on with my life because someone saying something stupid is better than them trying to take my rights.

I agree with you. I'm not a PC person at all, but I could see how someone would take offense to things like that. Sometimes it is ignorance but oftentimes it's just people being douche and insensitive tbh.

Which is exactly why I think breath is wasted on going for race. The root cause of people being shitty to each other is independent of that, but I don't see social justice types really caring. It's how white people do this, or men do that. They care more about secondary things like race, gender, and sexuality and ignore the human part because paying attention to the human part would make them realize that problems in society are more complicated than white people oppressing "people of color" or men oppressing women. It may even make them realize that they're not the best people themselves because they may treat their family, or waiters, or neighbors, or even individuals they believe to be oppressive like shit.

To be fair, i can't get on white people or men not knowing what language they speak in India or whatever trivial shit like that. You CAN and SHOULD get on people for being insensitive and douchey though. It's not cool to ching chong East Asians… it's not cool to refer to blacks as my pals, and its not cool to call gays faggots etc etc. What do you mean by the human part? Because honestly, if you teach people that you're a dick if you do the above things, you don't think that'll make them think about other dickish things they do/say to others in their life?
 
It is an identity. People from the islands aren't always "black" "native" or what have you. They have Indians, Chinese, Blacks, Whites, etc and they all mix with each other and share culture together. Maybe in their own islands they talk shit, but when they come to America they have that solidarity that they come from this specific island and they are from whatever that island is even though they recognize they maybe have different ancestors from different parts of the world.

They recognize they aren't "white" and that they are "of color" from island X.

Saying where you're from is one thing, but acting like "not white" is a type of people is another.

Language changes. It could mean something one time and mean something else another time. I don't understand why people cannot reuse that to mean just that - people from all over the world that is not white? How is that perpetrating anything?

"People of color" is not always used for hatred, but it implies a separation between white people and every other people, and this separation has been and continues to be the foundation for hatred of white people or people of color.

I grew up with parents of two different races and it never even occurred to me that anyone would dislike a person for the color of their skin until I learned about the civil rights movement. I thought that black skin and white skin were just features like brown hair and black hair. (Am I going to hate someone for having brown hair?) Black people and white people never seemed different to me until schools and my peers hammered the "people of color and white people" crap into my head for years.

If it never occurs to people that different skin colors are anything other than different skin colors, it's hard to develop hatred for someone because of their skin color. But if you tell people that people are different "people of color" because of their skin color, even if you tell them that these "different" people are equal, hatred is still possible.

To be fair, i can't get on white people or men not knowing what language they speak in India or whatever trivial shit like that. You CAN and SHOULD get on people for being insensitive and douchey though. It's not cool to ching chong East Asians… it's not cool to refer to blacks as my pals, and its not cool to call gays faggots etc etc.

I think that's generalized. If they're fine with it, then it's chill. Proceed with caution, but take it on a case-by-case basis.

What do you mean by the human part? Because honestly, if you teach people that you're a dick if you do the above things, you don't think that'll make them think about other dickish things they do/say to others in their life?

I don't think most humans think that deeply about their morality. Their response to being told they're saying something offensive would be something like, "okay, this demographic finds this word offensive," rather than "this demographic finds this word offensive. I wonder why. What other types of suffering are there other than offense? Why do people suffer and why do they create suffering for one another when they themselves know they do not want to suffer?"

So no, I don't think pointing out what words offend which people is going to cause anyone to get introspective about their own morality. Civilization has way too much entertainment floating around to make that likely.

I think all immorality has a pretty simple root. Unfortunately, I find it hard to explain in words, but I'll try. Human beings, as conscious beings do, enjoy the act of living and what it has to offer. Negative emotions are the result of a disruption of this enjoyment of an act of living. Unfortunately for humans, we can be ignorant of the idea that we're hurting others, (like if a child says "you're fat" to someone unaware that it's an insult), we can be so attached to our own joy that we avoid knowing if we're hurting others (alcoholics that unwittingly neglect their responsibilities), and we can even convince ourselves that depriving others of joy leads to a greater good (any group of people that says "x will be better if we kill y people").

All oppression is this. The oppressing group wants something that makes them feel good (control, a sense of grandeur, etc.) and the oppressed group feels bad because their own joy is disrupted by restricted freedom, resources, hatred, etc.

On the simpler level, the root of immorality applies to everything from the Holocaust, to gossiping about that bitch you work with, to stealing the last cookie from the cookie jar and blaming it on your sister. Everyone wants something and dislikes when they can't get it, and our actions can result in other people not getting what they want.

But social justice warriors, feminists, etc. don't seem to care about it on the simpler level. They won't ponder any metaphysical or psychological explanations. They seem to enjoy being crusaders for justice more than they want to find what justice actually is, whether it's a concept, a chemical process, etc. Of course they may care passionately about causes and how they apply to the lives of individuals, but they put on blinders and resist caring about any and all issues that hurt human beings in any way big or small.

Of course I'm only going off of my experience, but it makes me feel like they don't care about humanity as a whole. Do they ever wonder whether the oppressor suffers? No, they seem to hate them and/or pretend that life is all peachy for them. They're absolutely devoid of compassion for them. They're not interested in looking at both sides of the coin and making the best for both, they pick one side of the coin and fight for it.

It's all fights for women, fights for gays, fights for minorities, but it's not about creating a social climate where ALL humans can fucking get along. That doesn't seem to even cross their minds. Where is the love? They don't seem to want humans to develop a loving mindset towards one another, but to merely rip the shackles one places on the other, even if the shackler later gets shackled, or beaten, or shunned, or ostracized.
 
Why should anyone care for their oppressor?

I don't desire the shackles placed on people to be others, but as long as those people keep the oppressed oppressed it is beyond reason to expect someone to care for the persons who put those shackles on them.
 
Why should anyone care for their oppressor?

The same reason you care for the oppressed: they're sentient beings just like you.

I don't desire the shackles placed on people to be others, but as long as those people keep the oppressed oppressed it is beyond reason to expect someone to care for the persons who put those shackles on them.

This is the exact reasoning I have a problem with in social justice.

"Everyone's human, so let's be equal. But in removing oppression from one group, let's not take any care to make sure that the former oppressors don't get shit on in the future. You know, even though we acknowledge that both groups are human, say we want equality, but clearly find the oppressed to be more deserving of compassion rather than being moved to end oppression by the belief that all humans are equally deserving of happiness. Wait, what's that called? Oh yeah, equality."
 
I'm saying that as long as they are the oppressor and continue to oppress, why should anger not be held?

Once the goal of liberation is achieved and everyone is truly on equal ground - then forgiveness can be had
 
Because anger goes against the goal of equality. Anger divides people and makes them forget the humanity of others. They see the oppressors simply by the bad they're doing, not as human beings who happen to have a blind spot in their empathy.

The changes to social attitudes and to laws came about by empathy, not anger. Lack of compassion is fundamental to oppression, and anger doesn't magically give compassion to a person who lacks it. The way is to create an understanding.

Of course, people are going to get angry they're oppressed, but anger at being oppressed shouldn't be a motivation to creating equality. It should be about how awesome an equal society would be. That's what MLK was focused on, but social justice today seems to be outrage about x, y, and z, not about ending hatred and people loving one another.
 
You're such a fucking hippie I swear. Not everything can be solved with hugs and loving each other.

Sometimes you have to smack the person in the face and make them realize "You can't fucking do that to me."
 
It's not about hugs and loving each other, but about getting people to realize that you don't need to oppress people in order to enjoy yourself and getting along with others can actually create a society that's more enjoyable. But loving someone is definitely better than hating them. I think anyone can attest to that.

If you smack a person on the face, you're just going to cause them pain, not necessarily get them to understand your plight and become sympathetic towards you. People have enough of a problem with compassion, especially against those who cause them pain. If you cause an oppressor pain, how is that going to get them to stop oppressing? You're not changing the thing that causes them to oppress, only using fear of pain to get them to stop hurting you. We're not chimps. We don't have to solve our problems that way.
 
I'm going to step in here for Vimana and say that equality is not a zero-sum game, it's an attitude that has to be shared by its participants. It has to be reinforced early and often to limit society's abuse of the inherent trust of a commonwealth, and that reinforcement should be a public and generous reward for demonstrating an understanding, so that other participants have something to aspire to.
 
One problem I've noticed with all of this is that there always ends up being a kind of sacrificial white group either in terms of employment or in terms of their cultural heritage being catered to by the state at a local level. Resentment towards this breeds the birth of white supremacist groups and so on. It's happened repeatedly in history. The thing is, to a specific sub section of white people, middle class liberals who perhaps base their judgment on this from a reading of whiteness studies literature and so on, well they might think that's probably a process that we will go through on a route towards equality. My view is that such people, not to fall into an ad hominem tirade, but such people might do well to re-read their own books. Basically, from the point of view thay you have been given by your culturally insular media, you may see your nation's manifest destiny as bringing an end to identity conflicts globally and so on and so forth, with the associated ideas of the noble savage Other none white people from The Searchers and Dances with Wolves. Well, to be blunt, it's more complicated than that. The way people think about identify is seldom absolutely rational from what I've seen. Humans don't naturally react to inequality in the way we may presume, people are often very susceptible to believe and almost be consumed, in a way, by the mythologies of the day and the manner in which they justify unequal human relations, be that racism, tribalism, religion, ideology or whatever.

As far as I can see, this ends when humans stop being susceptible to it, which is never. These things change around and after a while, behaviour according to an old mode of the mythology is an indicator of a lower class person where it might have been the opposite some time ago. However, the unequal human relations continue. The once pagan king gets a bit of the crucifix fastened to his crown.

This isn't an argument against progressive politics though.
 
Why should anyone care for their oppressor?

The same reason you care for the oppressed: they're sentient beings just like you.

Unfortunately, institutional oppression is often justified or rationalized by an elite ideology that defines the oppressed as something other-than-human: subhuman, inhuman, etc.

Take the colonial humanism of Imperial France in the AOF (Afrique occidentale française); the colonial process operated by proclaiming a humanistic relationship with its subjects, but in fact treated them as incapable subhuman drones:

Republican civic society, in principle, was composed of mature citizen-subjects bound by a law that they indirectly formulated. In contrast, the colonial state in AOF identified African elites as immature semi-citizens whose self-government was permanently deferred. We may therefore understand these Panafrican migrants as precocious subject-citizens who, despite being racialized, performed their political maturity by exercising rights that they did not fully possess.

(taken from Gary Wilder's book The French Imperial Nation-State)

The point here is that the definition of the subject propounded by the imperial nation-state enters into contradiction; it proclaims its process as a form of humanism ("colonial" humanism, ideally purported not to conquer native subjects, but rather to "assist" them in modernizing) but then subverts this definition at every turn by actually treating its subjects as less-than-human.

When the definitions and values hegemonically filtered throughout a society provide no space for the oppressed subject to realize herself as equal to the oppressor, then it becomes difficult to do so by simply arguing for this equality peacefully. Once a ruling culture co-opts the values of peace, love, assistance, etc. then any appeal to those values by the oppressed will only serve to reinforce their oppression. This is how oppressive ideologies work; they don't consciously adopt the position of the evil empire, but of the benevolent ruler intent on providing support and assistance to those they oversee. Appeals to peace and equality serve no purpose, because the oppressors will respond through verbal agreement: they'll say to their subjects "Yes, of course, we want peace and equality; that's why we are helping you."

Meanwhile, of course, they continue to treat them as inhuman, or as individuals that do not actually possess the same rights as the colonizers. If inhumanity derives from treatment, i.e. action, then perhaps only action can resist such inhumanity.

This is an argument neither for nor against outright violence; but it is an argument that care, concern, and peaceful negotiation will often fail the purposes of the oppressed. Subversion is necessary, but this subversion need not be mindless violence.
 
Unfortunately, institutional oppression is often justified or rationalized by an elite ideology that defines the oppressed as something other-than-human: subhuman, inhuman, etc.

Of course. My point was that getting oppression to stop is getting the oppressor to understand the humanity of those they are oppressing.
 
Of course. My point was that getting oppression to stop is getting the oppressor to understand the humanity of those they are oppressing.

The problem is how that is possible when the oppressors already believe they understand the oppressed as human; but they fail to understand the implicit definition their ideology entails. That's the issue I was trying to illuminate with the quote from Wilder's book. They operate under a definition of humanity that excludes those they oppress whilst still defining those individuals as human. It's a brand of cognitive dissonance, or false consciousness.

The oppressors, in the case of Imperial France in the AOF, already believe themselves to be operating for the cause of humanism; hence, "colonial humanism." The term "human" has already been co-opted by the West, so appeals to humanity and humanism will fail because they already understand their cause as humanistic, and their subjects as human. The disenfranchisement derives from how they treat those subjects.
 
By getting them to actually understand, same as I said before. Not getting them to think they understand in a way that justifies oppressive behavior, but to understand.