Q

[SentinelSlain]

I love the way people are repeating shit I said in my post.

 

[Einherjar86]

By getting them to actually understand, same as I said before. Not getting them to think they understand in a way that justifies oppressive behavior, but to understand.

You're not understanding me; I'm saying there's a cognitive barrier, a limit to consciousness as it is culturally conditioned, that precludes what you are saying.

You're basically regurgitating Sartrean humanism:

Every configuration, even the Chinese, the Indian, or the Negro, can be understood by a Westerner. ‘Can be understood’ means that by virtue of a situation that he can imagine, a European of 1945 can, in like manner, push himself to his limits and reconstitute within himself the configuration of the Chinese, the Indian, or the African. Every configuration has universality in the sense that every configuration can be understood by every man […] There is always a way to understand the idiot, the child, the savage, the foreigner, provided one has the necessary information.

This is a very disputed claim, and one that basically appeals to some form of universality humanism that can be substantiated no further than a metaphysical hypothesis.

I'm saying this is a naively hopeful and baseless claim. Believing that we can make others understand anything is questionable, and invites a slew of controversial conditions/dynamics that need to be dealt with in turn.

 

[Vimana]

I did not mean understand as merely creating an intellectual model. I can't get through with words the concept I'm trying to convey with the word "understand," as your reply shows.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well, I can't "understand" something when the word you choose is unsuited to the idea at hand, as your reply shows. If this concept is purely incommunicable, then we have nothing to talk about.

If what you're going for is some kind of unmediated inter-cognitive relation between individuals, then I must respectfully disagree. The brain is an incredible organ, but it is an embodied organ.

 

[SentinelSlain]

One problem I've noticed with all of this is that there always ends up being a kind of sacrificial white group either in terms of employment or in terms of their cultural heritage being catered to by the state at a local level. Resentment towards this breeds the birth of white supremacist groups and so on. It's happened repeatedly in history. The thing is, to a specific sub section of white people, middle class liberals who perhaps base their judgment on this from a reading of whiteness studies literature and so on, well they might think that's probably a process that we will go through on a route towards equality. My view is that such people, not to fall into an ad hominem tirade, but such people might do well to re-read their own books. Basically, from the point of view thay you have been given by your culturally insular media, you may see your nation's manifest destiny as bringing an end to identity conflicts globally and so on and so forth, with the associated ideas of the noble savage Other none white people from The Searchers and Dances with Wolves. Well, to be blunt, it's more complicated than that. The way people think about identify is seldom absolutely rational from what I've seen. Humans don't naturally react to inequality in the way we may presume, people are often very susceptible to believe and almost be consumed, in a way, by the mythologies of the day and the manner in which they justify unequal human relations, be that racism, tribalism, religion, ideology or whatever.

As far as I can see, this ends when humans stop being susceptible to it, which is never. These things change around and after a while, behaviour according to an old mode of the mythology is an indicator of a lower class person where it might have been the opposite some time ago. However, the unequal human relations continue. The once pagan king gets a bit of the crucifix fastened to his crown.

This isn't an argument against progressive politics though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xBAtCsCTQ

 

[Einherjar86]

I wasn't ignoring your post; but if you're basically saying that middle-class whites typically absorb the belief that they and/or their country are helping those whom they perceive to be in need, then I would agree.

The ideology of a country always sees its own actions as bringing about the end of violent struggle.

 

[rms]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maycie/meet-feminist-frank-a-new-meme-that-youre-going-to-wish-was?bffb

 

[Vimana]

Well, I can't "understand" something when the word you choose is unsuited to the idea at hand, as your reply shows. If this concept is purely incommunicable, then we have nothing to talk about.

If what you're going for is some kind of unmediated inter-cognitive relation between individuals, then I must respectfully disagree. The brain is an incredible organ, but it is an embodied organ.

I think I got to the point I can put my argument into words.

Alright, so by "understand," I didn't mean form an intellectual understanding or empathize, but to be in a position emotionally in which one would understand the detriments of making one another suffer and would prefer to do things to bring joy to themselves and others.

How to do that, I have no clue.

 

[Onder]

 

[waif]

What does any of that mean?

 

[SentinelSlain]

I saw someone like that at my university. Middle class people are such strange creatures. At least that type are. I think I kind of understand the overweight 50 year old guys in their jaguars that eat at the restaurants round here and show off by speaking in french or italian. People that try and differentiate themselves from the "proles" in their liberalism are only as progressive as their real motivations.

 

[Onder]

I saw someone like that at my university. Middle class people are such strange creatures. At least that type are. I think I kind of understand the overweight 50 year old guys in their jaguars that eat at the restaurants round here and show off by speaking in french or italian.

Why do you think that's limited to middle class? And what are you trying to say by that 50 year old guys comment?

 

[SentinelSlain]

People that try and differentiate themselves from the "proles" in their liberalism are only as progressive as their real motivations.

Around here, there are literally gay working class people, but they would never say any of the shit in that guys profile, it's just not the done thing.

Older generations of middle class people seem more honest because they don't portray themselves as liberal progressives whilst sampling the fruits of the world.

 

[The Ozzman]

This thread needs more Q:

 

[Onder]

 

[-CC-]

Onder, where do you find this shit?

 

[Addo_Of_Nex]

As someone that's been walked in on numerous times while air jamming to Slayer half-naked, I sympathize with the plight of Miss #tortoisekin.

 

[waif]

I love the idea of someone coming out to their mother as a tortoise.

 

[Draehl]

This thread.

As a quasi/trans dimensional multilayered waffle/tomato being I find your phrasing to be incredibly offensive. Words (be it via html text or wave form) insult the ways of our allfather, the grandest of cane sugar phasewalkers. Gluten is murder.

 

[Onder]

Here's a nice case along with a resumé below.