Question to all the Ulver fans - what are you thinking?

[Dick Sirloin]

JAYKEELEY:


I assume you missed my second post. I'm starting to think this whole BAND vs. BAND thing is beyond stupid. All these arguments are starting to sound the same. We're never going to get anywhere, nor come to any new understanding.

I guess my whole problem with this thread in particular is that you keep stressing REASON and WHY-ness i.e. "What is the REASON you like this band more than another band?" I, personally, think that music is beyond objective reasoning. Unless we are talking simply about relevance, which can actually be argued objectively. In other words, if I like a band, I feel no reason to "back it up."

I never said Ulver were the be-all end-all of music, only that I believe they craft "art" (yes I said it again) that affects me much more than Metallica and Judas Priest. If someone dislikes this qualification, I don't care. Music means different things to different people. To some it's entertainment, to others it's emotion, to others it's nostalgia. We're splitting hairs here... it's all the same thing... enjoyment, art/beauty, its emotional effects on people... no matter what word you describe it, I think we all want "that feeling" when we listen to music. If you don't know what "that feeling" is, then you probably shouldn't be here.

I read all your posts, don't think for a second that I haven't. I personally think the "Trilogie" is, yes, better than any Empyrium, the first four Metallica, and maybe even Agalloch (although it's close... but if you want to argue "relvance," then I could easily point out that Ulver preceded both Agalloch and Empyrium... the Agalloch boys even cited "Bergtatt" as their primary influence). I don't know where Darkthrone, Swans and Portishead fit into it, but I assume that you believe all those bands set the "benchmark" in their respective styles. If we discuss Ulver from this angle, I could easily point out the above argument.

There's no doubt that Metallica have done A LOT for metal, maybe more than any other band. But then again, you could always say that THEY didn't even set the benchmark for thrash... "Reign in Blood"? "Rust In Peace"? "Darkness Descends"? "Beneath the Remains"?

But this whole "logical" argument will lead us nowhere. Like Genesis said, "I know what I like" and that's that, whether you think it is reasonable or not.

 

[Demilich]

Call it morbid curiosity when a non-metal band starts to beat a balls-to-the-wall heavy metal band in a metal tournament. And I get slammed for asking why.

Sorry JK

edit: Justin just pretty much summed up everything I've been trying to say in better and possibly fewer words than I could have said it.

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

I'm glad that this is very easy for me, because I am entirely uninterested in Ulver.

 

[lizard]

Like Genesis said, "I know what I like" and that's that, whether you think it is reasonable or not.

actually, what they said was, "I know what I like in your wardrobe."

OWN3D

 

[Dick Sirloin]

actually, what they said was, "I know what I like in your wardrobe."

OWN3D

No, it's

"I know what I like
And I like what I know
Getting better in your wardrobe
Stepping one beyond the show"



Nice try

 

[Reign in Acai]

Nice post Mr. Sirloin. You seriously can't have an argument over someone's taste in music.

 

[JayKeeley]

@Justin -- I'm not arguing anything you said.

Look at it this way, when person X suggests that a band is great, I'm intrigued enough to want to know why / hear a sample / maybe even re-listen to something of theirs I already own. Maybe I missed that 'pivotal' moment when something goes from being good to great.

I'm not forcing opinions etc, I'm just intrigued as to why someone can like something with so much conviction. Maybe it's just me. Also, in the case of Ulver, I'm very familiar with them already so it adds to that level of curiosity.

Maybe I just want to get into someone's head for a moment and see what he/she is thinking.

 

[lizard]

No, it's

"I know what I like
And I like what I know
Getting better in your wardrobe
Stepping one beyond the show"



Nice try

 

[Demilich]

wow, that was big

edit: JayKeeley, can you admit that though it may not have been your intention, you may have given the impression that you were saying the things Dick and I thought you were? 'cause I sure don't feel like going back through the thread and digging out examples. If you don't actually believe the things I was arguing against, then I've got no problem with you, obviously! If I misunderstood, then I'm sorry. But if other people see the same things I do, I start to wonder whether there wasn't something there to speak of in the first place.

 

[Dick Sirloin]

Maybe I missed that 'pivotal' moment when something goes from being good to great.

I'm just intrigued as to why someone can like something with so much conviction.

Maybe I just want to get into someone's head for a moment and see what he/she is thinking.

My point in a nutshell: I don't think any of this can be done. Just because someone else thinks an album is great, doesn't mean you should feel left out. An argument won't convice you that Megadeth's - "Risk" is the best album ever (to use an extreme example). A logical explanation won't do it. Unless you are telepathic, you probably won't be in on "the secret" or "the pivotal moment" until you experience it yourself. And what is wrong with enjoying something with conviction?

I think, if I'm getting the right hints, you believe that this hysteria over albums like "Bergtatt" (and the list goes on... Bathory, Swans, "Brave Murder Day", Drudkh) are only proclaimed by so many people is due to conformity. And I agree, there is a great deal of "Hammerheart is the best album ever, I love Burzum, Ima crank it up to 11" that, IMO, is used to get that reaction "hell yeah! that album rules! your taste in music is awesome!" sort of thing. And I think people are doing the same thing when they talk about ungodly obscure albums, as if they were the first to be "in on the secret." Let's be honest: there is a great deal of that around here. Oompa Loompas of all species everywhere. This is a whole other argument, but it's inevitable in a community this size where, even though it's only the internet, people still want acceptance. However, I also think there is a great deal of honesty here as well, and hopefully that will win out in the end. But if it doesn't who am I to care?

 

[JayKeeley]

Way too much of a disconnect here, but I HAVE to get some work done. Back later.

 

[Dick Sirloin]

Way too much of a disconnect here, but I HAVE to get some work done. Back later.

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!

 

[General Zod]

Haha, Pink Floyd vs Kreator.

Floyd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kreator.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!

Well I'm back now. As I remember it, you ran away for 12 months.

 

[NAD]

Well I'm back now. As I remember it, you ran away for 12 months.

PWN3D.

 

[JayKeeley]

My point in a nutshell: I don't think any of this can be done. Just because someone else thinks an album is great, doesn't mean you should feel left out. An argument won't convice you that Megadeth's - "Risk" is the best album ever (to use an extreme example). A logical explanation won't do it. Unless you are telepathic, you probably won't be in on "the secret" or "the pivotal moment" until you experience it yourself.

So then what's the purpose of an album review? What is it if not an explanation as to WHY something is subjectively good or bad? Avoiding the narrative just looks like total lethargy or complacency.

And what is wrong with enjoying something with conviction?

Nothing. It's a good thing. Actually, you would think that if you have real conviction about something, it would make it EASIER to describe what you think is or isn't valid.

I think, if I'm getting the right hints, you believe that this hysteria over albums like "Bergtatt" (and the list goes on... Bathory, Swans, "Brave Murder Day", Drudkh) are only proclaimed by so many people is due to conformity.

Not at all. Not even close. That's the biggest disconnect here. I would say that *most* people here are pretty confident in knowing what they like vs what they don't like, regardless of what "peer pressure" might exist.

And I agree, there is a great deal of "Hammerheart is the best album ever, I love Burzum, Ima crank it up to 11" that, IMO, is used to get that reaction "hell yeah! that album rules! your taste in music is awesome!" sort of thing.

Oompas, right?

And I think people are doing the same thing when they talk about ungodly obscure albums, as if they were the first to be "in on the secret."

That would be J and sometimes IoftheStorm?

However, I also think there is a great deal of honesty here as well, and hopefully that will win out in the end.

I agree. I think that for the most part, we all have such similar tastes that, more often than not, it appears that we're just copying each other. Or perhaps that's what Opeth17 thinks he's seeing.

Either way, and to Demilich's comment, the point of this thread was to see how anyone could equate one band's "benchmarks" to another. But I suppose I'm having to accept "but why should we?" as the bottom line. Fair enough.

Actually, I was even hoping to be inspired to listen to Ulver and try to see where Ulver voters were coming from.

 

[Dick Sirloin]

I didn't know this was a "Give me a review of Bergtatt" sort of thing. Is that really what you're asking for? If so, I think it's extraneous at this point, and I don't really understand what it would accomplish. Maybe reviews should be more about describing the music. Not saying that personal value should be left out, but do you think everyone at Terrorizer agreed with the 10/10 review of Mithras? A review, no matter how "objectively" it is written, is always a personal opinion.

Sorry if I thought you were trying to say something about the conformity here, I read too far underneath your posts. I'm not going to name names here, so we'll leave it at that (and it's not like, every now and then, we all aren't guilty of the above criticisms).

If you want a review of Bergtatt, here's one nice and short... I remember, in the winter of 2003, there was a snowstorm in western North Carolina. I was at home for Christmas break. My house is 12 miles from civilization, surrounded by 40 acres of trees, fields and creeks. That night, after a cup of coffee, I sat down at the bay window to watch the falling snow. The moon was hidden, but the clouds were full of its light. The sky looked like quicksilver, the mountains in the distance looked like Mordor. For 36 minutes I sat at that window and listened to "Bergtatt" on my headphones. It's one of the most majestic musical experiences I've ever had. Absolutely perfect.

There's my review.

 

[NAD]

I drove around in the rain listening to Bergtatt for about the 50th time one night, going to an Italian dinner with my woman at the time I believe, and I said to myself "god DAMN this album is the shit."

TEN FUCKING SKULLS.

 

[Demonspell]

See, I know where you're coming from. I know all the regulars. What doesn't add up is when regulars stray away from their personal 'profile'. I'm not even saying that's wrong, I'm just curious as to why.

That's all this thread ever asked for.

While there are clearly some divisions on this forum, I disagree with the idea of a personal profile, most people here do have clear areas of interest but their tastes are too diverse to be easily categorized. And this forum has always encouraged its members to step away from the familiar once in a while and I also think the accusation that this forum tends to conform is baseless (the occasional blatant oompa-dom excepted).

 

[JayKeeley]

While there are clearly some divisions on this forum, I disagree with the idea of a personal profile, most people here do have clear areas of interest but their tastes are too diverse to be easily categorized. And this forum has always encouraged its members to step away from the familiar once in a while and I also think the accusation that this forum tends to conform is baseless (the occasional blatant oompa-dom excepted).

Sure sure, but it is at least intriguing (to me and me only obviously) when some of the same people who vote for Ulver over Metallica also vote for Kreator over Pink Floyd.

There's no science to it, obviously, it's just an odditity and it seemed like people were getting their feathers ruffled for me pointing it out. It's just fucking forum banter! Sheesh.