Scottish Independence - An outsiders perspective?

Trevoire520

Member
Mar 24, 2007
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Fife, Scotland
I should probably know better than this as I don't want to get into a massive debate with anyone (had enough of that already tbh)

The whole debate has really brought politics to the forefront of everyday life in Scotland, and there's a huge turnout expected for the vote in just over 2 weeks (over 80%)

I'm curious if this is even on the radar for anyone living outside of the UK?
 
Yep, it's something I'm aware of here in Australia :) Unfortunately our dimwitted Prime Minister said some silly things about it.. idiot! Good luck with it \m/ It seems you guys could benefit from some self sufficiency and non-reliance on an outdated monarch that's doing sweet FA for your country currently :)
 
Yeah, it's more about removing ourselves from Westminster rule, we'll still have the queen as head of state (though honestly I don't see what benefit the royal family brings other than tourism personally)
 
Well isn't about oil? The English is worried about losing tax revenue, but what happens when the oil runs out? From what I've read the oil fountains are running out fast up there. Being apart of a bigger state is usually good, atleast when you're as small as Scotland would be if they where to break free from Britain.

I don't know that much about it really other then the Scottish have been fighting for freedom for about 1000 years haha!
 
Oils only a small part of the debate, I think oil revenue is the only reason the UK wants us to stick around, and they've been saying that it's going to run out soon since the day it was discovered. There was also record levels of investment in the north sea last year, and new fields opening on the west coast and areas that we've been unable to explore because of the nuclear subs at faslane.

The Scottish government want to invest heavily into renewable energy (of which we have very large resources) so that we have an energy industry to replace oil revenues as it runs out, but Westminster don't seem to have any similar plans in place.
 
Well isn't about oil? The English is worried about losing tax revenue, but what happens when the oil runs out? From what I've read the oil fountains are running out fast up there. Being apart of a bigger state is usually good, atleast when you're as small as Scotland would be if they where to break free from Britain.

I don't know that much about it really other then the Scottish have been fighting for freedom for about 1000 years haha!

It's not going to run out for 50 years yet and its value is only increasing.

Aside from that Scotland actually has the potential for being the highest renewable energy generator in Europe - currently over 1/3rd of our energy comes from renewables so there are other energy markets we have available to us. London in comparison seems set on Nuclear options.

But in reality it's more about getting away from the British imperialist mentality - the Scottish political spectrum is in direct contrast to the English one; we elect more centre-left parties in comparison to the english conservative right. We're also more against stripping away welfare/privatising public services and investment in nuclear weapons - it's a much more liberal country.
 
Wow this is not very high on the US news media playlist. This is the first I have heard on this. Would love to get more insider perspective.

I wouldn't imagine it'd be very high on the mainstream media agenda - I'd say its less likely to be blanketed because speculation will upset the financial markets at this stage - a poll today showed the pro independence movement only needs a just over three percent swing to become a reality and today the pound dropped just over half a percent against the dollar.

Basically in two weeks we could have essentially voted to dissolve the UK and it's increasingly looking like a viable outcome.

The pro-independence campaign has basically been all grassroots activism - it's been incredible to see actually, people that you would never have expected to be interested in politics suddenly care about this countries future whilst the pro-UK campaign has been mostly centred around large media conglomerates trying to maintain the status quo.

I should say that I am very pro-independence as a disclaimer - I really feel strongly about my country having self governance and a sense of pride and social responsibility that at the moment can't be ascertained through the distinctly outdated London centric political system here in the UK.
 
Being apart of a bigger state is usually good, atleast when you're as small as Scotland would be if they where to break free from Britain.

I don't really worry about this really - we're about the size of denmark/norway/finland population wise (around 5.25 million) and whilst those nations are small they seem to do ok.
 
Here's a bit from an American radio show that's surfaced today giving a round up of some of the recent. I'm not sure of the exact origins of the show, though it seems to be more left leaning so is very supportive of the Yes side.

http://youtu.be/-H_psPVLk-8

It's quite a big far ranging debate overall so it's difficult to sum up without writing a huge tirade, and as a yes supporter I can't pretend to be unbiased (though a few years ago before the campaign got going I was intending to vote no)

The yes campaign is generally pushing for a fairer society, spending our tax revenues on protection of welfare and the NHS instead of nuclear weapons and foreign wars, investment in industry to create more jobs, and for decisions about Scotland to be made in Scotland.

The no campaign with the help of the UK media is heavily pushing fear and uncertainty, saying we can't keep the pound, will be kicked out of the EU & NATO, that businesses will flood out of Scotland, and saying that we're more secure as part of the UK.

Westminster have also promised more devolved powers for the Scottish government if we vote no, although the UK prime minister wouldn't allow an option for more devolution to appear on the ballot paper. We also had the promise of a better devolution in exchange for a no vote in a referendum in 1979, the result was a yes but the vote was rigged with a minimum turnout that meant every non-voter (even some who were deceased) counted as a no. The promised devolution never came. We only got it after a second referendum in 1997.
It's now known through a previously secret document called the Mcrone report that Westminster had been covering up the value of north sea oil at the end of the 70's because of the threat of Scottish independence. And many yes supporters (including a friend of mine in the oil industry) are sure the same thing is happening again, with oil workers from the Clair Ridge oil feild having been sent home on full pay until after the referendum.
 
It's not going to run out for 50 years yet and its value is only increasing.

Aside from that Scotland actually has the potential for being the highest renewable energy generator in Europe - currently over 1/3rd of our energy comes from renewables so there are other energy markets we have available to us. London in comparison seems set on Nuclear options.

But in reality it's more about getting away from the British imperialist mentality - the Scottish political spectrum is in direct contrast to the English one; we elect more centre-left parties in comparison to the english conservative right. We're also more against stripping away welfare/privatising public services and investment in nuclear weapons - it's a much more liberal country.

I wouldn't call Scotland in direct contrast to the UK, it's just more left-leaning. Labour are still a major party in England. Anyway I hope they get it, self-rule is a great thing and I wish we had more of it in the other UK regions. There are more people in a 70 mile radius in the Northern cities than in Scotland, Wales and NI combined, who suffer from all the same problems of a London-centric state. It's worth mentioning to people from abroad that Scotland wasn't conquered or annexed, they willingly went into union with England because among other reasons they were broke from failed colonial ventures. They also embraced Empire and take just as much blame/credit for it. Not hugely relevant to the thread but misconceptions about union are a big influence on sentimental bias.

If they get it, the world won't end. Life will go on, business will still take place. It's a question of conscience. On the one hand I'll be sad to see the UK end, especially since I'm about as Scottish ancestrally as I am English, and I was born in Cornwall. On that subject - would I be entitled to a Scottish passport? How would that work?
 
Don't confuse liberal and left wing man. Both have their merits but it's a bit like the agnostic/gnostic thing, you can be a liberal right winger or a liberal left winger. Welfare and public services are socialist but you would be pretty stretched to call the CCCP a liberal state for example. I wouldn't call Scotland in direct contrast to the UK either, it's just more left-leaning. Labour are still a major party in England.

Anyway I hope they get it, self-rule is a great thing and I wish we had more of it in the other UK regions. There are more people in a 70 mile radius in the Northern cities than in Scotland, Wales and NI combined, who suffer from all the same problems of a London-centric state. It's worth mentioning to people from abroad that Scotland wasn't conquered or annexed, they willingly went into union with England because among other reasons they were broke from failed colonial ventures. They also embraced Empire and take just as much blame/credit for it. Not hugely relevant to the thread but misconceptions about union are a big influence on sentimental bias.

If they get it, the world won't end. Life will go on, business will still take place. It's a question of conscience. On the one hand I'll be sad to see the UK end, especially since I'm about as Scottish ancestrally as I am English, and I was born in Cornwall. On that subject - would I be entitled to a Scottish passport? How would that work?

I wasn't really - it depends on how you define liberalism - as this is primarily an American board I was pertaining more to their definition which is more tied into the concept of the left rather than the more traditionally laissez-faire european equivalent. Social liberalism is probably a better term for what I was describing, which is definitely a more left leaning definition.

As far as politics go I'd say the SNP are in direct contrast to the Conservatives politically which are both the governments of the day (I don't see either changing for the next decade really). Whilst you are right to reference the Labour party I don't feel that the Labour party in its current state is anything less than right wing - it's wholeheartedly endorsed privatisation and widespread economic deregulation and its social policy, whilst not as aggressively anti-welfare as the Conservatives, is still lacking.

Whilst Scotland willingly went into the union it only willingly went at the discretion of landowners who saw it as financially profitable at the time. It wasn't a democratic decision in any sense of the word and history mostly notes it for its clumsiness more than anything. Although you're right Scots made as much of a savagery of the British empire as the English, I don't think we have as much pretensions for aggressive foreign policy today though, there is definite elements of that colonial mentality still alive and breathing within the Westminster establishment.

Believe me though, if the vote was just to get shot of London and let the rest of the UK make its own way I'd vote for that :lol:

And you wouldn't get a Scottish passport the same way I wouldn't get an English one even though I have an English second name and half my family originates from Devon.
 
I wasn't really - it depends on how you define liberalism - as this is primarily an American board I was pertaining more to their definition which is more tied into the concept of the left rather than the more traditionally laissez-faire european equivalent. Social liberalism is probably a better term for what I was describing, which is definitely a more left leaning definition.

I figured as much, check the edit time on my post. :lol:

As far as politics go I'd say the SNP are in direct contrast to the Conservatives politically which are both the governments of the day (I don't see either changing for the next decade really). Whilst you are right to reference the Labour party I don't feel that the Labour party in its current state is anything less than right wing - it's wholeheartedly endorsed privatisation and widespread economic deregulation and its social policy, whilst not as aggressively anti-welfare as the Conservatives, is still lacking.

I guess I tend to focus more on the social issues the parties align themselves to and I see the Labour party as being leftist in that regard. Centre-left but left all the same.

Whilst Scotland willingly went into the union it only willingly went at the discretion of landowners who saw it as financially profitable at the time. It wasn't a democratic decision in any sense of the word and history mostly notes it for its clumsiness more than anything. Although you're right Scots made as much of a savagery of the British empire as the English, I don't think we have as much pretensions for aggressive foreign policy today though, there is definite elements of that colonial mentality still alive and breathing within the Westminster establishment.

Sure but the same can be said of any number of things. Scotland didn't get it half as bad as Cornwall, who are still laughed at if they even suggest that they have their own cultural identity. Not that that should make any difference to the Scotland vote but it's worth noting that other parts of the UK don't even get devolution, Wales was conquered and annexed and was technically just part of England for ages. Comparatively, union was peaceful and voluntary. It's only worth noting because a lot of support gets thrown about because there's a perception that it was some aggressive takeover. Flawed sure but it wasn't the 14th century.

Whether or not Scotland is completely different to the rest of the UK (which I would still contest, obviously it's different enough for there to be an issue of representation at Westminster) is a moot point because it doesn't really change the argument that if Scots generally share views that because of the shape of UK democracy they won't see realised in legislation, they should secede and govern themselves. Similarly, other parts of the country should be able to do the same thing. Personally, I'd go for a confederation broken down by population rather than nationality instead as I think it would be fairer and retain the cultural ties we have but whatever.

Believe me though, if the vote was just to get shot of London and let the rest of the UK make its own way I'd vote for that :lol:

So would a lot of other people. I also think you're conflating England with the establishment, especially when you talk about how the English are more "imperialistic". The establishment is definitely British rather than English, it's unfair to blame them for the supposed imperialism of the establishment, especially when millions oppose it. I think you've implicitly recognised that by saying the problem is essentially more that government is so South East/London centric than anything else. I've always seen Scotland as being massively more close to the north of England than the north is to the south of England, especially the south east.

And you wouldn't get a Scottish passport the same way I wouldn't get an English one even though I have an English second name and half my family originates from Devon.

That seems pretty isolationist and divisive to me. Anyway, my axe to grind is that it's very unfair that Scotland gets devolution when other areas don't. However this vote turns out, I hope people start to question that. Bit of a tangent but since nation, state and country are all separate concepts, nation refering to the people, state to the government and country to the geographical region, I would still retain my nationality, I would still be living in the same area, but my ability to participate democratically would be hugely improved if the state I lived in started at the river Tamar and ended at Swindon. I think if people understood the distinction between those concepts they'd be more receptive to the idea that they wouldn't lose their identity. I mean, we say we've abandoned the nation-state anyway, so surely this is a logical continuation of that? We used to draw the lines based on the people that lived in different areas, but that's not something we do anymore. Why do we need to keep those same lines in that case?

In a globalised world, commerce and business will happen regardless. Simply changing who makes the rules in a certain area won't end life as we know it, we won't all become destitute. We'll just have a better say in how our lives are run. America does, or at least did fine with federated states, why can't we?
 
Definitely agree that other regions should get more devolution. Unfortunately more devolution was removed from the ballot paper so full independence is the only way forward at this point I feel, and it also comes the advantage of removing nuclear weapons and scaling back military spending. I'm also hopeful that a side effect will be a big political shake up throughout the rest of the UK as a result.
 
And again, I just don't see Scotland as being especially different in regards to foreign policy attitudes. There are still at least half a million conservative voters there, not that it matters since Labour were worse for it anyway. It's a moot point because it doesn't really change the argument that if Scots generally feel a certain way but because of the way UK democracy works they can't see their views realised through legislation, they should secede and govern themselves. Similarly, other parts of the country should be able to do the same thing. Personally, I'd go for a confederation broken down by population rather than nationality instead as I think it would be fairer and retain the cultural ties we have but whatever.

So would a lot of other people. I also think you're conflating England with the establishment, especially when you talk about how the English are more "imperialistic". The establishment is definitely British rather than English, it's unfair to blame them for the supposed imperialism of the establishment, especially when millions oppose it. I think you've implicitly recognised that by saying the problem is essentially more that government is so South East/London centric than anything else. I've always seen Scotland as being massively more close to the north of England than the north is to the south of England, especially the south east.

That seems pretty isolationist and divisive to me. Anyway, my axe to grind is that it's very unfair that Scotland gets devolution when other areas don't. However this vote turns out, I hope people start to question that. Bit of a tangent but since nation, state and country are all separate concepts, nation refering to the people, state to the government and country to the geographical region, I would still retain my nationality, I would still be living in the same area, but my ability to participate democratically would be hugely improved if the state I lived in started at the river Tamar and ended at Swindon. I think if people understood the distinction between those concepts they'd be more receptive to the idea that they wouldn't lose their identity. I mean, we say we've abandoned the nation-state anyway, so surely this is a logical continuation of that? We used to draw the lines based on the people that lived in different areas, but that's not something we do anymore. Why do we need to keep those same lines in that case?

In a globalised world, commerce and business will happen regardless. Simply changing who makes the rules in a certain area won't end life as we know it, we won't all become destitute. We'll just have a better say in how our lives are run. America does, or at least did fine with federated states, why can't we?

You're right there is a bit of conflation there between English and establishment politics I would have to say that the prejudice towards that is that Westminster has always been dictated by English mandate, is in England and purely down to numbers the Scots have only had a direct effect on one election in the last 50-60 years. As far as national politics goes (a fairer representation of political viewpoint) we've certainly shown to be divided in this aspect.

I like your idea about regionalisation but this isn't an option on the table and a lot of the existing political system is in urgent need of restructuring before this could occur - the house of lords is undemocratic and needs revised and first past the post needs to be abolished entirely but whilst parties have vested interest in political control these systems are too convenient to do away with. In Scotland we have a chance for complete political reform which is the opportunity of a generation to set an example and instigate political change.

I wouldn't argue its isolationist to say that you'd have an English passport - it's just common sense - if you're born in the states but your parents are from Scotland then you're still American (sorry guys!). Second generation immigrants usually more thoroughly embrace the cultural ties of their home nation. In a globalised world (or at least as far as western europe goes) you'll still be able to come and live here if you wanted. Only the politics is divisive - but I don't see it as Scotlands problem to save the UK left wing - which has run itself into the ground in recent years. I do however think Scottish Independence will invigorate the English political system and perhaps give the voting English public the chance to instigate their own political shake up.
 
I think Scottish Independence could be a good stepping stone to English Independence. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

There is a fair amount of FUD on both sides. I'm English, and I think our political class has been fucking the regular people over for years and years and years. Scotland has had free education at the expense of the English taxpayer for a long time. It will be interesting to find out whether this will change. That is important to me because I'm £15k in debt to the Student Loans Company, and the kids going to university after 2007 have to pay £9000 a year for tuition fees. They've made education incredibly inaccessible for your average English youngster, but for the Scottish youth, it's incredibly accessible.

As an aside, it pisses me off that independence movements around the UK are nearly always admired, if not entirely agreed with. But English independence and Euro-Skeptic movements are nearly always portrayed as moronic and bigoted. I don't think this is necessarily true.

The 'Yes' camp are by and large honourable people. But there is a nasty anti-English undercurrent to some of what I've read, and I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't understand the anti-London comments either.
 
Scotland has had free education at the expense of the English taxpayer for a long time.

This is a myth peddled by the media to make the English resent the Scots.

Free education is paid for out of the Scottish governments budget. Same goes for free prescriptions etc etc.

The Scottish government only gets back a small amount of the tax revenue raised in Scotland. Westminster spend the majority of it on our behalf on things like nukes, illegal wars, house of commons, London Olympics etc.