Sorry to bring up another one but .
- Thread starter SocialNumb
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not the point of what?... whether or not jesus existed is exactly the point of this thread i'd think, since that's exactly what he asked, and all that he asked. so how is that not the point? this was a history question, not a religious one.
anyway, to the original question.... there are certainly some mentions of him in various Roman historical writings, some of them nearly 100 years after his death was presumed to have occurred, that are commonly used to argue his actual existence. it's really unclear though, because most of the few mentions of him in these old writings are often argued to be "pious frauds"... or "little white lies" that were considered forgivable in that they promoted faith. this practice was proven to have been perpetrated by some very respected early religious historians. so really, i don't think it's possible to truly know.
anyway, to the original question.... there are certainly some mentions of him in various Roman historical writings, some of them nearly 100 years after his death was presumed to have occurred, that are commonly used to argue his actual existence. it's really unclear though, because most of the few mentions of him in these old writings are often argued to be "pious frauds"... or "little white lies" that were considered forgivable in that they promoted faith. this practice was proven to have been perpetrated by some very respected early religious historians. so really, i don't think it's possible to truly know.
Razzee
Kolja
Notuern
Bloody vaginal belch
- Oct 20, 2007
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Not 100% true.
Several historians documented one Jewish man named Jesus/Christ that had allot of followers during his lifetime(The name alters between Jesus/Christ in these documents, but describes the same man.).
There are other documents from Jewish sources at the time that claims that a man named Jesus should be stoned for practicing sorcery.
So most "evidence" of his existence appeared after his death, but there where some non-religious historical documents from his lifetime that mentioned him.
I want to recall that the crucifixion was documented by the romans at the time as well?
Yeah. (Dunno about the 2nd reich)
So basically the answer is no, save for a couple unprovable writings. Even The New Testament says very little about him. I asked because I usually tell people that the Jesus from the Bible probably didn't exist. Most people, be it Atheist, Agnostic or Theist (they freak out) respond with something along the lines of "I think he existed" or "They have proven he existed on such and such History doc." Faith? well it's faith. Where are the Docs? or "writings" and are they provable facts?
So you see I don't want to keep saying "Jesus from the Bible probably didn't exist" (as described) if there is/are solid evidence that he (the man) existed but somehow eludes me to no end.
This I will check out.
I pretty much agree with this. Why would everyone around at the time just forget about guy who did such miracles? To the point that God had to intervene and tell Paul (Saul) so we can remember. Doesn't add up.
Chryst Krispies
Vanilla Gorilla
every source you mentioned... especially the last one, which i already addressed, have been criticized as being potential incidents of "pious fraud". i have not claimed to believe or disbelieve either possiblity, legitimite or fraudulent records, only that this claim has been made, and in some cases proven [presumably via forensic document analysis].
i don't really care personally either way.
Notuern
Bloody vaginal belch
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Yeah. (Dunno about the 2nd reich)
So basically the answer is no, save for a couple unprovable writings. Even The New Testament says very little about him. I asked because I usually tell people that the Jesus from the Bible probably didn't exist. Most people, be it Atheist, Agnostic or Theist (they freak out) respond with something along the lines of "I think he existed" or "They have proven he existed on such and such History doc." Faith? well it's faith. Where are the Docs? or "writings" and are they provable facts?
So you see I don't want to keep saying "Jesus from the Bible probably didn't exist" (as described) if there is/are solid evidence that he (the man) existed but somehow eludes me to no end.
I have a feeling that you have a huge problem with historical sources.
One of the later sources that makes things likely that he actually existed is Pliny the Younger.
He wrote about how difficult it had become to deal with these christians, that refuse to follow the romans, because this "christ" told them not to.
Considering that this was after Jesus lifetime, its still not very likely that such a resistance would exisist within the roman empire so early, without a preacher called Jesus Christ.
There are allot of documents regarding how the romans where to handle the christians, and these documents started to appear ~35.
The Talmud Sanhedrin 43a(Jewish document) tells about a man named "Yeshu" that was to be stoned for misleading the Israeli people from their god and for practicing sorcery.
The histories around this Yeshu fits pretty well with the christian Jesus, but the Jewish documents portrays him as a liar and fool.
I think about Jesus as i think about Robin Hood, there is very little historical evidence about them, but its just enough to prove their existence, and that they where not the people who we though they where.
Chryst Krispies
Vanilla Gorilla
This is correct. I don't know if some of you guys realize this, but just because it's written by a so called "historian" doesn't make it true. Ancient historians and the like have been known to stretch truths and to notate hearsay as actual history. There's no real quality control in the ancient world to research and back up writings.
There's debate whether a lot of the writings that have a "jesus, or a christ" because there have been mistranslations and all sorts of typos and shit. So I wouldn't just accept that because it was written thousands of years ago it HAS to be true.
I don't care either way though.
To quote Geoff Tate
"I DON'T BEEELLLLIIEEEEVVVVEEE IN GOD
I NEVER HAVE I NEVER WILLLLLLLL."
abyssofdreams
knows what you think.
Andy Sneap
Metal Guru
spioraid
Fancy a pint? Or two?
Well, to answer that question we need to debunk a few myths. If only I had a huge mustache and a seemingly gay ginger as a co-host then I can do it in style. Anyway.
The majority of the paintings of Jesus are based off what was 'seen' on the Shroud of Turin. It is claimed as being the cloth that was wrapped around Jesus' head after his death, and that his face got imprinted on the cloth by means of oil and the other spices used in the burying process. Tall, slender, roughly shoulder length hair, etc. Personally I think it's bull. Even if it were the actual shroud, it has no real significance.
However the overall idea of Jesus looking more Aryan than typically Middle Eastern is not that far from the truth. Jesus was born in an area not too far from Dubai, which tribe's people tended to look slightly more lighter skinned and taller than the other tribes. Remember Dr. Bashir from DS9? *nod*
As to the original topic, yes there is historical evidence on that fact that Jesus did exist. Josephus is the Jewish historian previously mentioned is one source. The New Testament itself is evidence because it is essentially a compilation of letters and first hand accounts of His disciples. Now before you say I can't count that as evidence because it wasn't written by Jesus Himself, ask yourself first why would 12 guys leave their jobs (a few of them were pretty dang rich), hang out and wander around for 3 years and make up a guy who defied every system known to man and only be killed.
There are other books out there that I can't vouche on the validity of, but in the book of Mormon there are a few other first hand accounts (again, never been sure on the accuracy of these) as well as the Apocrypha and other typically Catholic writings. But again, a lot of these are post-Jesus or are harder to prove their validity.
Yes, I'm sure the Romans had plenty of documentation on things such as uprisings, crucifixions, trials and testimonies. But go find one. Just because it probably was documented 2,000 years ago doesn't mean every piece is still around.
Besides, there's not a lot to document. Born in a stable, lived as a carpenters son (from a seemingly out of wedlock birth), and then did some the most outrages and 'heretical' things one can do within the Jewish religion. So much that any mention of Him was probably erased or destroyed in an attempt to have history loose it in time. Common practice for that time, no?
Chryst Krispies
Vanilla Gorilla
The Josephus writings are some of the writings that were in debate as to their validity. Many scholars have found evidence that it was all bogus.
Thats just it. Why did it take decades upon decades to tell the story? I'm not totally sure of the time line seems no one is but it seems to me these "12" would have been dead before any mention of Jesus was made. Did they even exist?
I'm still researching.
Chryst Krispies
Vanilla Gorilla
Thats just it. Why did it take decades upon decades to tell the story? I'm not totally sure of the time line seems no one is but it seems to me these "12" would have been dead before any mention of Jesus was made. Did they even exist?
I'm still researching.
Honestly dude, it's probably going to be a fruitless search. Just spare yourself some trouble and bail on it.
Razzee
Kolja
I've met him at wacken, very cool dude!
a picture with him:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2442/jesus2tl8.jpg
Hes also singing in this band.
[ame]http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=47211179[/ame]
I heard he is also a race car driver.
Every time I try, it is fruitless. Rather frustrating sometimes. To bad.
Every time I try, it is fruitless. Rather frustrating sometimes. To bad.
spioraid
Fancy a pint? Or two?
Thats just it. Why did it take decades upon decades to tell the story? I'm not totally sure of the time line seems no one is but it seems to me these "12" would have been dead before any mention of Jesus was made. Did they even exist?
I'm still researching.
From what I know the 12 (11 were the originals, after Judas killed himself the other Paul became an Apostle) went on spreading the Gospel for roughly 60 years after the resurrection. The resurrection is really the starting place for everything because that's when the Great Commission was given.
Jesus did have a small gathering aside from 12, but as far as numbers go it was a very small movement. Naturally it would take a long time for ANYTHING to grow when you're starting at such a small base. Even still after the first century or so, that's when alot the persecution started and drove the Christ-Followers (They weren't called Christians until about 110 AD in Antioch) under ground.
So it really wasn't until after the Roman Empire fell that Christians really had a chance to prosper accordingly as far as numbers go. One could debate that Constantine made Rome Christian, but I don't think it was entirely sincere and obviously didn't last.
