Technical vs Progressive Metal

Eaten has some killer thrashy type stuff going on, plus I always loved that artwork.

Haven't listened to Bleeding yet though. Seen where people say its the weakest in terms of Barnes vocals though.
 
TechnicalBarbarity said:
I'm sorry but saying Necrophagist or most tech death doesnt have complex composition is so incorrect it basically voids anything you have to say on this matter.
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As structurally tonal music, not in technical terms. Death metal is atonal for the most part, progressive metal is not, that's the basic difference. Necrophagist and all tech death metal is atonal, Cynic is not.
 
Allfader said:
Death metal is atonal for the most part, progressive metal is not, that's the basic difference.
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King Crimson is pretty atonal, so are bands like Opeth (at times), Dream Theater have used pretty atonal chords, Animals As Leaders use dissonance.

I dont think you know what you're talking about.
 
Terasophe said:
King Crimson is pretty atonal, so are bands like Opeth (at times), Dream Theater have used pretty atonal chords, Animals As Leaders use dissonance.

I dont think you know what you're talking about.
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Not that much, really. Most of the chromatisms and tonality changes used by KC and several other bands of that age are kinda common in jazz and stuff like that, same with Opeth. About the latter, the 70's prog rock element is more than evident and the extensive use of Melody set the band firmly into progressive territory and not technical stuff. Dream Theater is the archetype of progressive metal and the atonal element in their music is not only minimal, but also has a specific function Within the logical songwriting they are known about.

Rhythm is also a different element in both. Progressive music tends to feature odd signatures that complement the experimental nature of the music.

Tech death is more straightforward (if not entirely standard) and death metal in general terms is inherently atonal, excepting some of the most melodic acts where coherent harmony is used. Most of the riffing in death metal doesn't serve a melodic and tonal function. The logic in the songwriting is not the same as most of music.

See Death, especially since ITP. Chuck's songwriting has a very especific tonality that is easily heard. Symbolic and TSOP expanded that progressive mindset in all aspects; drumming used more prog signatures, riffs became more logically melodic and the amount of Melody was also increased. Control Denied is progressive metal and its not a far cry from TSOP or even Symbolic, many of the riffs are identical stylistically talking.
 
Who sounded like Butchered at Birth or Tomb of the Mutilated at the time they came out? I agree that calling them a technical death metal band is incorrect (though they did increase the technicality quite rapidly after Eaten Back to Life but they always more went for brutality) but calling them by the books and generic is one I hear a lot but never see proven.

Terasophe said:
I'm not a big fan of Barnes era CC, but Butchered at Birth is pretty solid fuckin death metal.
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How do you like Butchered at Birth but not Tomb of the Mutilated? That's weird.
 
CiG said:
Who sounded like Butchered at Birth or Tomb of the Mutilated at the time they came out?
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almost every other death metal album that wasnt too good. Doesnt mean they werent influential. Their aesthetics is what they were mainly known for, not their ho-hum bog standard music. They were the popular death metal band that catered to simpletons. They did not even have the skill to do what the other more elite guys were doing at the time.

And while were talking about CC, i was going through a decibel back issue where they were inducting The Bleeding into their hall of fame, and came across this. Thought a few of you guys might dig this....

By 1993, Cannibal Corpse was in an interesting conundrum. When you have hammer smashed every boundary of decency and good taste on your third album, where exactly do you go? ... The controversy was both a blessing an albatross: blessing in the sense that Cannibal Corpse became perhaps the best know of the emerging American death metal bands; an albatross that they wanted to be known for much more than explicit cover art and unseemly song title.

The problem was that they weren't proficient enough as musicians and didn't have the right lineup to make the next step. Their peers in Death and Morbid Angel were writing technical and musical marvels. Cannibal knew they could do the same. What was missing was a coherence and a consistency that is often lacking on their earliest albums, proof that their music can stand with and even surpass their notorious reputation.

On the album that would become The Bleeding, Cannibal Corpse set to change their destiny from shock to substance. The first step was replacing original guitarist Bob Rusay with old friend and jam partner Rob Barrett. Barrett immediately added formibalde chops and experience. The second, under the watchful guidance of longtime Cannibal producer Scott Burns in Nov 1993, was writing death metal songs that you couldnt forget, what they later dubbed "death metal with hooks." In numerous late night sessions at Morrisound in Tampa, Burns told the band they lagged behind their peers in musicality and urged them to write better songs. Cannibal, which spent a month in the studio and a rental apartment trying to best themselves, answered the challenge with classics like "Staring Through the Eyes of the Dead" and "Striped, Raped and Strangled". Both songs have never left Cannibal's setlist in the ensuing two-plus decades.

While Butchered at Birth and Tomb were cudgel strikes, The Bleeding is more a methodical surgeon's cut. The song are linear and the musicianship is exemplary. The production is brighter and more nuanced than Cannibal's earlier records. And the lyrics, while still horrific, are more about the psyche and psychology or horror than a militaristic assault on the senses-with a few notable exceptions.

The Bleeding marked the close of Cannibal Corpse's first era. Vocalyst and lyricist Barnes was fired during the Vile sessions in 1995 and replaced with current whirlwind George "Corpsegrinder" Fisher. In the ensuing years, Cannibal has grown even more musically adept and produced technical marvels like Bloodthirst and Kill. Nonetheless, The Bleeding contains Cannibals most popular song and several band members said during their HOF interviews that it could be performed live in its entirety. We are happy to again induct Cannibal Corpse for the death metal masterpiece The Bleeding
 
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Then back and read through the last time we went through this. What was it, a few months ago? Im getting tired or recycled arguments

Its like saying anthrax were some kind of innovators in thrash or some shit just because they were a generic band who didnt have the musical talent or ability to do what their peers were doing but STILL gained polarity. They're like the death metal version of that band
 
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TechnicalBarbarity said:
Then back and read through the last time we went through this. What was it, a few months ago? Im getting tired or recycled arguments

Its like saying anthrax were some kind of innovators in thrash or some shit just because they were a generic band who didnt have the musical talent or ability to do what their peers were doing but STILL gained polarity. They're like the death metal version of that band
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Big difference between saying Cannibal Corpse were innovators (I do believe they were among the few bands to innovate brutal death metal) and saying they were ho-hum bog standard generic death metal. All you have to do is link me some of their contemporaries that they sounded exactly like or very similar to. If there are albums from back then that sound like Butchered at Birth and Tomb of the Mutilated please tell me because I want to blast them.
 
ho-hum means average, not good, boring etc. So thats just a matter of opinion, but for you to say they were groundbreaking(your words no?) is hilarious to me. They couldnt do what they were trying to do(which that article even says) and you're saying they broke grounds? You want comparisons? Go listen to some of the weaker stuff from Master, Malevolent Creation, Deicide, Obituary and voila.
 
Our old disagreement was about whether Tomb of the Mutilated was groundbreaking for its time, I still think it was in terms of the development of the subgenre brutal death metal.

I asked you to substantiate your claim that what Cannibal Corpse did on Tomb of the Mutilated other bands did better, pretty sure you never gave me any examples.

An article written in 1994 by a music reviewer means less than shit to me, no offense but reviewers are worthless. That said I do agree that Cannibal Corpse upped the playing and songwriting on The Bleeding, that's pretty much objectively true as far as I'm concerned.

TechnicalBarbarity said:
You want comparisons? Go listen to some of the weaker stuff from Master, Malevolent Creation, Deicide, Obituary and voila.
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If you think those bands, within the genre of death metal, are comparable to Cannibal Corpse and the sound they were trying to deliver, I guess we'll just never agree on this.

Anyways I just went ahead and re-read that whole disagreement and you didn't provide any examples of other bands doing what Cannibal Corpse were trying to do but way better, or any bands that sound similar enough to Cannibal Corpse to justify calling them generic and by the books. Sure, ho-hum means boring, fair enough.
 
Anthrax invented whiffle thrash. I mean, they did have a distinct style that you can sometimes hear in later Northeast thrash like Overkill (Under the Influence particularly) and Nuclear Assault (some post-Game Over stuff).

EDIT: Is he saying Cannibal Corpse sounds like Obituary? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
The only other early brutal death metal band I can think of that were doing, broadly speaking within that subgenre, what Cannibal Corpse were trying to do was Suffocation and they are the true pioneers of brutal death metal and are better than 99% of death metal bands anyway. That's no mark against Cannibal Corpse for not being as good as them. Can't think of any other contemporaries of the band trying to do what they were though.

Broadly speaking, all the brutal shit comes after Effigy of the Forgotten and Butchered at Birth.
 
Not counting a few of the NY guys i mentioned, basically most of the Floridian bands (some of the same as last time and thats not even counting the other bands that others in that disagreement you went back to mentioned and linked) did what they did but better, thats not even counting the better bands that would put them to shame. The only thing innovative or groundbreaking about them was what i said in this first post. So yes they are the generic watered down versions of most the the good death metal bands of that time. I'm sorry if that offends you

Also if i had time i wold type out the actual interview where most of the guys in the band basically say the same things that were said in that paragraph, but yea what would they know right?

What did they do that other bands didnt do better?

EDIT:
:lol: we didnt mention Suffocation last time? Like i said dude i'm getting tired of these recycled arguments.
 
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