The Conspiracy Thread

Slaindreamer said:
Good comments, this is actually very similar to the situation regarding knowledge of extra-terrestrial contact and agenda. I mean within certain groups....or group. The first step to understanding (at least) part of the UFO puzzle is to realise how information is controlled.
A man in the military who was opened up to this described it as the "onion effect" where there are many different layers representing the differing levels of classified information.


As a UFO skeptic, what info can you provide me Slaindreamer, to prove that these aliens exist? And why shouldnt I believe UFO-believers are not faith-crazed wackos easily manipulated and misled by their equally fervent beliefs in anti-government myths and conspiracies?
 
speed said:
As a UFO skeptic, what info can you provide me Slaindreamer, to prove that these aliens exist? And why shouldnt I believe UFO-believers are not faith-crazed wackos easily manipulated and misled by their equally fervent beliefs in anti-government myths and conspiracies?

No one should be a "believer" in anything inasmuch as that would imply holding a conviction that is not based on a rational observation of the available facts. I haven't come across enough evidence to make any conclusion about aliens existing on Earth, and consider it unlikely that they have ever come here. On the other hand, it is very likely that aliens do exist in various forms on other planets in the universe.

Most so-called anti-government "myths" or "conspiracies" are actually well evidenced observations. The people who choose to rail
against "conspiracies" are either involved in the acts that they don't want everyone to know about, or are "believers" who swallow media propaganda, or are just not in the slightest bit interested in what goes on around them.

There is a big credibility difference between the assertion that Jews are overrepresented in positions of power and are behaving in a way deliberately contrary to the national interest, and the assertion that there are aliens from outter space on earth. The former whacks us over the heads daily with the stark obviousness and relevance of it, and the latter is pure speculation which is much harder to verify.
 
speed said:
As a UFO skeptic, what info can you provide me Slaindreamer, to prove that these aliens exist? And why shouldnt I believe UFO-believers are not faith-crazed wackos easily manipulated and misled by their equally fervent beliefs in anti-government myths and conspiracies?
honestly i think that this is a situation where the burden of proof should lie on the shoulders of the skeptics, not the believers anyone and everyone that really truly believes they've been abducted will flat-out say "i've seen pretenders, i've seen hoaxes" but, as a firm skeptic, can you conclusively difinitively and completely independantly prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that every single alien abduction encounter is a hoax or halucination? i think that conclusively proving each and every individual alien encounters/abductions to be hoaxes/hallucinations [and anylising each one completely individualy and independantly] is the responcibility of the skeptic, there are hoaxers and acid-trippers out there, but there are also aliens out there as well
 
Tongue_Ring said:
honestly i think that this is a situation where the burden of proof should lie on the shoulders of the skeptics, not the believers anyone and everyone that really truly believes they've been abducted will flat-out say "i've seen pretenders, i've seen hoaxes" but, as a firm skeptic, can you conclusively difinitively and completely independantly prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that every single alien abduction encounter is a hoax or halucination? i think that conclusively proving each and every individual alien encounters/abductions to be hoaxes/hallucinations [and anylising each one completely individualy and independantly] is the responcibility of the skeptic, there are hoaxers and acid-trippers out there, but there are also aliens out there as well

People use to call this experiences something else, now they just called them alien abductions, when they use to be spiritual in nature.

But I certainly more inclinded to believe that Aliens and such are not always from this dimention of space, but that opens up a whole can of worms I don't want to get into. Although it is possible to go anywhere inside a Merkaba field, if you know what that is.(they look like pure energy spaceships)
 
Silver Incubus said:
But I certainly more inclinded to believe that Aliens and such are not always from this dimention of space, but that opens up a whole can of worms I don't want to get into. Although it is possible to go anywhere inside a Merkaba field, if you know what that is.(they look like pure energy spaceships)
i guess it really just depends on technology

did these so-called "aliens" develop a device that creates "interdimentional" portals like the device in the Sci-Fi show "Sliders"?

or
did they create a device that creates "wormholes" like in the Sci-Fi shows "Star Trek DS9", "Stargate SG-1" and "Stargate Atlantis"
 
Norsemaiden said:
No one should be a "believer" in anything inasmuch as that would imply holding a conviction that is not based on a rational observation of the available facts. I haven't come across enough evidence to make any conclusion about aliens existing on Earth, and consider it unlikely that they have ever come here. On the other hand, it is very likely that aliens do exist in various forms on other planets in the universe.

Most so-called anti-government "myths" or "conspiracies" are actually well evidenced observations. The people who choose to rail
against "conspiracies" are either involved in the acts that they don't want everyone to know about, or are "believers" who swallow media propaganda, or are just not in the slightest bit interested in what goes on around them.

There is a big credibility difference between the assertion that Jews are overrepresented in positions of power and are behaving in a way deliberately contrary to the national interest, and the assertion that there are aliens from outter space on earth. The former whacks us over the heads daily with the stark obviousness and relevance of it, and the latter is pure speculation which is much harder to verify.

Some very interesting and important points you raised, also some of the most straightforward unbiased thinking I've seen for a long while.
Your second paragraph evidences what part of the main problem is. Too many people are conditioned (and have been for a VERY long time o_O ) by what is given to them through that "magical" thing people look at in their homes........the television. Before anyone says anything, yes the internet can also contain manipulative information but the major difference is that it is not controlled like the output we receive from the TV. Then as you mentioned there are also many many people who just simply don't care. Sad.
The subject in question is one of the hardest struggles in human history and so many people don't even know about it. Although things have improved vastly over time so who know what the future will bring. The struggle of course is the burden of those "in the know" getting the information out to the public and breaking down the discrimination, ridicule and sometimes naive thoughts people have. Not exactly an easy prospect when dealing with the biggest coverup in human history.

Tongue_Ring said:
honestly i think that this is a situation where the burden of proof should lie on the shoulders of the skeptics, not the believers anyone and everyone that really truly believes they've been abducted will flat-out say "i've seen pretenders, i've seen hoaxes" but, as a firm skeptic, can you conclusively difinitively and completely independantly prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that every single alien abduction encounter is a hoax or halucination? i think that conclusively proving each and every individual alien encounters/abductions to be hoaxes/hallucinations [and anylising each one completely individualy and independantly] is the responcibility of the skeptic, there are hoaxers and acid-trippers out there, but there are also aliens out there as well

I love you :worship: . Seriously though I really respect that..........the thought has been on my mind before (and I'm sure I voiced my opinion on it somewhere, sometime.) but often gets lost amongst the constant "You are talking rubbish give me proof" statements thrown around. Your words are actually symbolic of how things really should be evolving. It is time for a paradigm shift. It has been slowly building for an eternity and I think humans need a good wake up reality check. Don't forget, what we originally know is TAUGHT to us. (obviously I'm not saying this to you Tongue Ring.......somethign tells me you already know this.) So we must learn things ourselves and at the same time un-learn all the false values that were hammered into us since birth. As my favourite saying goes.............human beings once believed the world was flat.
Silly people.......It's square :lol:
 
I was watching the History Detectives on a public T.V station, and according to this show, the auto comanies bought up all of the trolley cars in the nation (save S.F. ) in the 20's and 30's, with the excuse they were inefficient, dangerous, lost money, and unpopular as reasons for closing them all down. Of course the trolley cars ran on electric (totally non-polluting), had few accidents a year, and were still popular at the time. Interesting that many of Americas public transportation problems had been solved in 100 years ago, but were thrown out in favor of profits (so the car companies could sell more cars, and buses).
 
speed said:
I was watching the History Detectives on a public T.V station, and according to this show, the auto comanies bought up all of the trolley cars in the nation (save S.F. ) in the 20's and 30's, with the excuse they were inefficient, dangerous, lost money, and unpopular as reasons for closing them all down. Of course the trolley cars ran on electric (totally non-polluting), had few accidents a year, and were still popular at the time. Interesting that many of Americas public transportation problems had been solved in 100 years ago, but were thrown out in favor of profits (so the car companies could sell more cars, and buses).
Although I am certain that the sale of more cars was an underlying motive. I believe that the cost of fuel was cheaper than the production of electricity at the time. The technology of electric motors was not where it is today. The electic motor is much more efficient now than it was then.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Yes that one is worth looking at - it has been around quite a long time. I have some skepticism about what they say in it about the lamps in front of the pentagon and the allegation that there were no parts of a plane engine found there. This is because I talked to an expert on aviation in person, and asked him what he thought. Further details later. I also talked to a passenger airline pilot however, and he said that his fellow pilots and himself felt that it would be next to impossible for even a very highly trained pilot to crash a plane into the towers in the manner that the authorities would have us believe happened.

This new video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7143212690219513043&hl=en-CA
(part 1 of 3) Is really worth watching - and it may get taken off soon.

I am left in no doubt that the towers were demolished using explosives after watching through this.

Part 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-999558027849894376&hl=en-CA

Part 3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1162851149755261569&hl=en-CA
.
 
This may sound absurd, but I actually wanted to believe the conspiracy theories about 9/11...I just cannot! As much as I distrust my govt. and quite frankly, put nothing past them(either party or position) I just find the evidence and refutation of the conspiracy theories overwhelmingly logical and believable. Such a 'conspiracy' would require such an incredible degree of planning, participation and profound secrecy to be carried out successfully, I simply do not see how this would be plausible. Perhaps, my overdeveloped sense of skepticism has backfired on me and I'm missing the critical details here. I know it sounds nutty, but I would be fully willing to buy the conspiracy, but to be intellectually honest I cannot.
Though I must confess, I find the Pentagon questions the most compelling. I will watch this discussion, perhaps I can be swayed yet...
 
A friend of mine said that he saw no reason to complicate a straight-forward story that Al Qaida are genuine terrorists and that they really flew planes into the towers and pentagon, making them collapse just as the official version says they collapsed. Yet he suggested that the main point that all the conspiracy explanations are in danger of disguising is the probablility that the planned attack was known to the Mossad (and pro-zionists in the US secret services) who deliberately allowed, or even subtly facilitated, the attack to take place. The reason being that it serves the interest of Israel.
It could be said that a lot of the details concerning the remote controlled planes and the detonations in the towers, etc run the risk of drawing attention away from this basic explanation.

Fox news has run reports confirming that the Mossad seemed to know a great deal about the planned attack.
http://100777.com/node/180
 
OldScratch said:
This may sound absurd, but I actually wanted to believe the conspiracy theories about 9/11...I just cannot! As much as I distrust my govt. and quite frankly, put nothing past them(either party or position) I just find the evidence and refutation of the conspiracy theories overwhelmingly logical and believable. Such a 'conspiracy' would require such an incredible degree of planning, participation and profound secrecy to be carried out successfully, I simply do not see how this would be plausible. Perhaps, my overdeveloped sense of skepticism has backfired on me and I'm missing the critical details here. I know it sounds nutty, but I would be fully willing to buy the conspiracy, but to be intellectually honest I cannot.
Though I must confess, I find the Pentagon questions the most compelling. I will watch this discussion, perhaps I can be swayed yet...

I think the conspiracies are putting the cart before the horse.

I say this, as the terrorist attacks have been utilized by the defense industry, the military, and the hawkish empire-loving neo-cons, to justify another "war", and to show the world, our new power and empire. People are unnerved by the sudden loss of liberty, fear-mongering, corruption, etc. and thus assume there must have been some conspiracy to bring it about. However, the true conspiracy is nothing more than a blowback of failed CIA meddling and American foreign policy, as well as religious fundamentalism and a clash of cultural values.

I also ask, why has everyone given in if you will (and accepted the propaganda and fearmongering--the fighting for freedom schtik, etc), and forgetton the symbolism of the attacks? They destroyed our financial headquarters and our bloated defense department (our military headquarters). Both are the two means of American "Empire" throughout the world. What is the response of our genius marionette president, and his hawky pupper masters? Why, invade Iraq, make it our military and economic outpost in the middle east, to export our brand of empire. Genius isnt it?
 
Speed I think you are missing some key facts about the time that lead up to the attacks. A week or so before there were numerous evacuations and power shut downs so that the building could be 're cabled'. But anyone seeing these people going in and out of the towers were quite suspicious of this very unsual shut down. So right there, there was the opportunity to plant the explosives with a team of demolitions experts(So far, as far as I can discern from the information I have seen, these were probabbly Mossad agents, the same ones caught filming and celebrating the destruction of the towers who where under the cover of a moving business).

Also, you are forgetting the PNAC documents that stated that they needed a Pearl Harbour type event to polarize the American People into a war in the middle east. I'd say that is pretty self explainitory. We have the Motive.

And since people here are logical thinkers, the question must be asked, where is the evidence that there were any terrorists on those planes. It has been found an outright lie, which will probabbly end up in the US government in a lawsuit because of the photos shown on the television of so called hijacker terrrorists, there were a majority of them STILL ALIVE IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES. I am not saying that real terrorist cells don't exist, rather that these so called attacks where not done by them in america.

Also, many other things, like that video Norsemaiden posted, goes into details about the WTC and how they were designed to take an impact, that the steel was in a mesh construction that was created to be strong even if there was a hole in it. You cannot dismiss DR. Steven Jones' chemical analysis of the fragments left of the WTC which show that traces of THERMATE(a sulfur variation of thermite) was found in the steel, proving that their was inside explosives cutting throught the tempored steel, and not some half baked myth about office supplies holding fires that could melt steel.

But let us not forget what the benefits have been from this. Isreal, certain gains from this Anti musilm movement in the west. They gain because as some may know, Israel is building a wall, which is reaching into palastinian land and this is being partly funed by the US. The Zionist Jews that are in control of Israel have stated on many occations how much they hate the Palastine people and that they are nothing more then Goyim or cattle, with two legs and that their lifes are very expendable. So another motivation is there as well to create a war with Muslims. But because it is the way of Israel, they will get America to fight this war, keep the American people in the dark through Jewish control over the media and even use people in the FREEDOM movement to distract the people into thinking other people are responsible for the attacks of 9/11.

This event has been used to be a known threat, and it has been seen that other like events have been used now to start the Toltaltarian system of control over the masses. Its not just the 9/11 bombings that are in need to be suspecious of. The Bombings in London, have very dubious explainations and a probabbility of coincidence to high to even state. Here in Canada, there was a terrorist scare in the summer, but the has not been anything of it since. All of these small events are pushing gradually towards something else. More control, over not security, but the peoples, and their opinions. The illusion of terrorism is a very powerful tool. In the minds of trusting and honest people, they have the defense of being attacked, then the media tells them who did it. The power of PR has been realized in the last century, and it can be said as a fact, that most news you see is not really news, but a PR firm telling you what to think, what the facts are.

How many more crimes are going to get swept under the rug in the name of HOmeland security. I find that it is offensive to me, although im not an american citizen of the USA, that they even use the word Homeland. This is right out of the NAZI propaganda of the use of homeland.

With the ever increasing Police power, and the lack of Laws and checks and balances, it is very important that people be paranoid about what their government is up to. The extent of the lies being sold to the public is so extreme that most things you will hear on any news channel with be Infotanment(ie the great distraction of pop culture to numb the masses into apathy of the real problems in life) or flat out lies.

It is very visible that they know how to manipulate the masses. They have it to the point where the public keeps itself in check. Most people won't ask these question for fear of ridicule, and being ostracized by the people they care for. The fear of people thinking they are Crazy, Paranoid, or some other harsh words of differentiation.
 
Silver Incubus said:
Speed I think you are missing some key facts about the time that lead up to the attacks. A week or so before there were numerous evacuations and power shut downs so that the building could be 're cabled'. But anyone seeing these people going in and out of the towers were quite suspicious of this very unsual shut down. So right there, there was the opportunity to plant the explosives with a team of demolitions experts(So far, as far as I can discern from the information I have seen, these were probabbly Mossad agents, the same ones caught filming and celebrating the destruction of the towers who where under the cover of a moving business).
This is why I tend to be a skeptic of conspiracy theories. The fact that the buildings power was intermittantly shut down does not mean it was suspicious. Wherever you read that, did they point to the building maintenance schedule and determine that this did not follow the buildings normal mode for maintenance? I know that the building I work in shuts the power down at least once a year so we can perform mock DR and test the backup power.
Also, you are forgetting the PNAC documents that stated that they needed a Pearl Harbour type event to polarize the American People into a war in the middle east. I'd say that is pretty self explainitory. We have the Motive.
Wasn't the PNAC created in 1997? If so, what was the date on the document you are referring to?
And since people here are logical thinkers, the question must be asked, where is the evidence that there were any terrorists on those planes. It has been found an outright lie, which will probabbly end up in the US government in a lawsuit because of the photos shown on the television of so called hijacker terrrorists, there were a majority of them STILL ALIVE IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES. I am not saying that real terrorist cells don't exist, rather that these so called attacks where not done by them in america.
I have never before heard anyone question whether or not there were terrorists on those planes. There is so much proof that there was, I can't believe this is even questioned. 1-The Islamo-facist-terrorists inadvertantly communicated with air traffic control when they thought they were using the PA on the plane. When someone says in Hindi/Arabic "Stay in your seats, we have a bomb on the plane" It is not a leap to believe there are terrorists on board. 2-Airport surveilance (oh no! their privacy was invaded!) had all of the hijackers on camera, going through the terminal. 3-Multiple victims on board the flights used their cell phones to contact loved ones. I am not sure what more you could need to believe there were indeed terrorists on board.
Also, many other things, like that video Norsemaiden posted, goes into details about the WTC and how they were designed to take an impact, that the steel was in a mesh construction that was created to be strong even if there was a hole in it. You cannot dismiss DR. Steven Jones' chemical analysis of the fragments left of the WTC which show that traces of THERMATE(a sulfur variation of thermite) was found in the steel, proving that their was inside explosives cutting throught the tempored steel, and not some half baked myth about office supplies holding fires that could melt steel. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY shares Dr. Jones interpretation regarding thermite. Traces of thermite were never found. Metal that appeared to be similar in appearance to metal exposed to thermite was found. Jones is basing his entire conclusion on this and nothing else. Alan Pense, professor emeritus of metallurgical engineering at Lehigh University, Richard Fruehan, professor of metallurgical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition Inc. all disagree with Jones' assumptions.

But let us not forget what the benefits have been from this. Isreal, certain gains from this Anti musilm movement in the west. They gain because as some may know, Israel is building a wall, which is reaching into palastinian land and this is being partly funed by the US. The Zionist Jews that are in control of Israel have stated on many occations how much they hate the Palastine people and that they are nothing more then Goyim or cattle, with two legs and that their lifes are very expendable. So another motivation is there as well to create a war with Muslims. But because it is the way of Israel, they will get America to fight this war, keep the American people in the dark through Jewish control over the media and even use people in the FREEDOM movement to distract the people into thinking other people are responsible for the attacks of 9/11.Sounds like the jews stole the script from the Sum Of All Fears. :loco:

This event has been used to be a known threat, and it has been seen that other like events have been used now to start the Toltaltarian system of control over the masses. Its not just the 9/11 bombings that are in need to be suspecious of. The Bombings in London, have very dubious explainations and a probabbility of coincidence to high to even state. Here in Canada, there was a terrorist scare in the summer, but the has not been anything of it since. All of these small events are pushing gradually towards something else. More control, over not security, but the peoples, and their opinions. The illusion of terrorism is a very powerful tool. In the minds of trusting and honest people, they have the defense of being attacked, then the media tells them who did it. The power of PR has been realized in the last century, and it can be said as a fact, that most news you see is not really news, but a PR firm telling you what to think, what the facts are. I can't say that I disagree with anything here. Perception is a powerfull tool.

How many more crimes are going to get swept under the rug in the name of HOmeland security. I find that it is offensive to me, although im not an american citizen of the USA, that they even use the word Homeland. This is right out of the NAZI propaganda of the use of homeland. I am a firm believer that if I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to lose.

With the ever increasing Police power, and the lack of Laws and checks and balances, it is very important that people be paranoid about what their government is up to. The extent of the lies being sold to the public is so extreme that most things you will hear on any news channel with be Infotanment(ie the great distraction of pop culture to numb the masses into apathy of the real problems in life) or flat out lies. That is a two-way street. Where are the checks and balances for the conspiracy theorists? You have entire websites devoted to this conspiracy when they have little proof, just conjecture and interpretation. Who checks them? I do however agree that big gov't is something to be concerned about. Being from Canada, do you resent your gov't for all of the control it weilds over you? Gov't controlled radio, tv, press. No guns etc...[/

It is very visible that they know how to manipulate the masses. They have it to the point where the public keeps itself in check. Most people won't ask these question for fear of ridicule, and being ostracized by the people they care for. The fear of people thinking they are Crazy, Paranoid, or some other harsh words of differentiation.

You do have a point. Some people are sheep and bury their head in the sand, fearing the other sheep will excommunicate them socially if they don't fall in line. However, these conspiracies are more often than not inaccurate. There were people that actually believed that our gov't was aware that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked.
Now, to completely jump off topic...I saw part of Zoolander last night. Have you ever seen that movie? They go over the whole conspiracy about male models being used to assasinate world leaders. I thought it was ironic that I came across that last night while I have been contributing to this thread.
Later.