the pro tools back lash

[bpcrshooter15]

well what do you know, the trivium video "magically" dissappeared

Thats because it was ripped off a DVD. no different than any other video that gets taken down due to copyright stuff.

Trivium gets bashed so unfairly sometimes, its a bit ridiculous. Having spoken to them personally, they aren't bashing Sneap or any one else. They have issues with ascendancy b/c Matt doesn't like his voice and it has more of the cliche "metalcore" sound. paolo says the crusade sounds "small" because in comparison, it does. at the time they liked it. now that they recorded shogun it pales in comparison. thats why they "didn't just change/fix it back then." I know all of these guys can play their instruments well. So what if they used drums samples. the video was shot during recording, nobody here (that I've seen anyhow) wants to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they didn't have time to go back and reshoot another video about how it actually turned out, or maybe they are actually oblivious to it (if they even used samples). That doesn't change the fact that Travis still tracked it all. These guys want to play heavy metal and tour. Nit-picking that these guys are elitist and really suck b/c they don't know or are not as hands on with the audio engineering side of stuff as people on a forum about AUDIO ENGINEERING comes off as a little elitist to me.

While this is just my opinion, i think Matt has an awesome voice. I'm jealous i can't go from a death metal growl to a Hetfield grunt to a nice clean vocal, but im not going to bash him for it (i really wish I could just do one good and play the guitar). on top of that he can really play guitar. maybe he isn't a virtuoso or maybe he isn't THE greatest in terms of creativity. speaking of hetfield, who honestly thinks Shogun sounds like Metallica??? or Ember/Ascendancy for that matter. The Crusade, i can see comparisons but if you say it does then you can't just disregard the other thousands of metal albums that vaguely sound like the biggest heavy metal band of all time as non-ripoffs. You think they are all conceded dickheads?? fine, but id take their songs (especially shogun) with their, god forbid, sampled drums, over any of the shit on the radio today. I like them more than most bands out there today. Trivium certainty aren't the only band with Metallica listed under their influences.

I also notice people seem to judge them almost entirely on everything non-musically related to them or without really giving them a chance. "Matt's dad bought them their way in" bullshit, "They're just a shitty Metallica ripoff" really?? i wasn't aware Lars could still even use the double kick, or Hetfield screamed ala Death metal, or they had 13 min epics such as Shogun. Ascendancy -> too metalcore, Crusade -> too "Metallica", Shogun-> oh noes they lied on their DVD, possibly used drum samples like everyone else, and their quotes are taken out of context as if they hate and could give a shit about their engineers.

I understand it's an Andy Sneap forum, so a bias is to be expected. but i think its unfair and seeing little support for them I wanted to give my opinion. I know i have a bias the other way and I mean no disrespect to any on the forum, especially since you guys have helped me out immensely with production and such. This topic just really bothers me knowing the guys personally. maybe it just doesn't need to be said but wheres the outcry against shitty rap/pop "artists" using nothing but samples and having other people write everything for them and put some less than inspiring lyrics over top. "Best Rapper Alive" anyone? Lil wayne using what sounds like Fear of the Dark from Rock In Rio without credit, like a actual cover or whatever, talking about how hes the best rapper alive on top of it. like a narcissistic overhyped autotuned hack Weird Al selling millions. sorry that's another rant for another time.

 

[JBroll]

Metallica didn't have long songs? We're jealous of generic cookiecore vocals? Hmm...

Jeff

 

[Ermz]

I think there are self-serving justifications on both ends. It doesn't feel right to keep treating the engineer and musician camps as two separate, warring entities. We should ideally all be striving toward the same end. There is a lot of misinformation traveling through artist circles regarding recording techniques, but there are also many modern engineers who are quite comfortable sound replacing and autotuning away as that's the sound they've come to know and do. I try to take these discussions with as much salt as possible.

@Andy: If a band were to come to you fully rehearsed, ace gear, ace technique, all music already pre-written and asked you to record them live, no triggers, no sound replacing, no autotune, would you do it? Are there records you've done this on in the past?

People seem to associate your sound largely with the characteristics of sample replacing, overdub recording, cut & pasting and overall tightening of performances. Do you feel you'd lose that renown if the preferred approach were to resurface?

 

[JBroll]

It's sad how many people say and think 'triggers' when they mean 'drum replacement'...

Jeff

 

[RemoWilliams]

I'm starting to think that artists are trying to use the term "raw" as a reason to not practice or learn their songs as tight as they can. Man, if only they knew how "tight" things were back in the 40's thru 60's recording a jazz album, or doing some fusion in the 70's. I think they want what's in their head without putting in the effort and then blaming the producer or engineer.

 

[Andy Sneap]

Id love to record a band live again to be honest. Bands aren't coming to me in a position where they can do that. For instance, certain members cant take time off work (yes that happens alot actually), the album is still being written when the label pushes them to record (pretty much most of the time), not all band members know the songs (again, quite often) and so you have to work with what you are given. I don't mind this by the way, its become quite the norm infact. You just work around everything.
As far as no autotune, triggers etc, if the band really wanted to go that route and were insistent and capable then yes I'd give it a go. Funny thing is, I've tried this recently, I'm not going to say who, but when it came to mix they were complaining they couldn't hear the attack of the kick like their previous album, which guess what....was triggered.
This new Megadeth record, Shawn's really keen to try and keep the drums natural and because he's a really consistent hitter and the Megadeth stuff isnt blasting at 230bpm we should be able to. Its sounding good so far on the demos. I think there's a vid going up anyday with some new stuff being demoed on it.

There's always been studio trickery, there's just a bit more now. I always do what I think it takes to get the results I want to hear in a performance. Sometimes people write riffs above their talents but if they then go away and rehearse it to a reasonable standard, should I have settled with a sub par version or edited the ultimate version together?
I've been guilty of tightening things too much once or twice, its an easy thing to do when you get super involved on a record and actually when a player isnt that good because you've got yourself into a headspace where you dont let things fly and actually any feel thats there isnt a cool groove or swing its just plain bad. So its a fine line.

But yes, I'd quite like to do some "in session" type vibe stuff with some bands, maybe even on older songs for bonus tracks that they know a little better when I'm working with them.

 

[Ermz]

Thanks for the answer.

I really do hope that the opportunity does eventuate for you to do an album the way you'd like to at some point. I for one would be very curious to hear it, and would welcome it as a nice change from what's going on in the mainstream metal scene at the moment. It's quite surprising to read that you still deal with band members struggling to attend sessions due to day jobs. I suppose things don't really change all that much, regardless of what level one is working at. People will be people. Will keep an ear out for the new Megadeth.

Anywho, back to herding kangaroos...

 

[Metaltastic]

I've been guilty of tightening things too much once or twice, its an easy thing to do when you get super involved on a record and actually when a player isnt that good because you've got yourself into a headspace where you dont let things fly and actually any feel thats there isnt a cool groove or swing its just plain bad. So its a fine line.

Hmm, yeah, I can imagine that'd be an easy trap to fall into, cuz you get in a mindset that the dude is goofing up everywhere, when in fact some stuff contributes to a "human" feel - do you find you're sometimes doing this with all instruments, though, or mostly drums?

 

[Andy Sneap]

actually i was thinking guitars when I was typing that. Unfortunately there isn't a cool mistake setting in beat detective.

 

[Andy Sneap]

and how many of you have decided to correct one part of a song trying to leave the rest "au naturel" only to realize the rest sounds shit once the said bit has been tightened up?

 

[Zuranthus]

Thats because it was ripped off a DVD. no different than any other video that gets taken down due to copyright stuff.

actually all the videos were taken down from all of Time/Warner companies, that includes their sub corps, which RoadRunnerRecords happens to be a part of...got wind of it when Dresden Dolls started complaining that their videos were pulled

 

[Ermz]

and how many of you have decided to correct one part of a song trying to leave the rest "au naturel" only to realize the rest sounds shit once the said bit has been tightened up?

Only too many times. That's one of the biggest traps I've fallen into with Beat Detective. Once you start, where do you stop? Only cure I've found was having an ace drummer do 3 to 4 passes of a track and then copying together the best takes of each section without any BD whatsoever. There's really nothing natural about BD, and once you start tightening the most loose section of the track it then becomes the tightest and then the other sections start to sound pox in comparison and ugh...

 

[Metaltastic]

Unfortunately there isn't a cool mistake setting in beat detective.

Hahahahaha, if only...

 

[James Murphy]

+1 to everything Andy said.

and Ermz...there is "Strength" setting in BD.... you set that however you want. there's no rule that says it has to be left on 100%. for really tight performances that could still use some work, i'll go between 50 and 70 percent. most often though i find myself in the 85% area... blasts even stronger, just because so many drummers, even otherwise really good ones, just fall apart a bit on blasts.

 

[bpcrshooter15]

Metallica didn't have long songs? We're jealous of generic cookiecore vocals? Hmm...

Jeff

1. thats a bit out of context. i meant *12 min long songs in that style (different types of singing, distortion/acoustic/distortion, and while all their songs are long for the most part, name one over 10 min). I can't think of any Metallica song where I could say "x" song off Shogun is a copy of it.

2. never said you or anyone else should be jealous. I said "I'm jealous". and the whole point of that was he can do more than said "cookiecore" vocals.

based on what you said i'm going to assume you didn't read what I wrote and just said that b/c im supporting them, but maybe im entirely off base.
however you pretty much prove my point about nitpicking some unimportant/unrelated aspect just to bash them.

certainly is a dick-move if allegations are true and they knowingly lied and then knowingly chose to not correct/retract/apologize for the statements. but that's a lot of conditions and shouldn't automatically mean the music is terrible just because of that.

Metallica has shown there dislike for the Justice sound. does that automatically mean they think flemming is to blame and they are disrespecting the guy who engineered their, what most say, best albums?

 

[K Odell]

and how many of you have decided to correct one part of a song trying to leave the rest "au naturel" only to realize the rest sounds shit once the said bit has been tightened up?

Oh god Andy, story of my life right there.

 

[Gustavo_Loureiro]

Andy, have you ever recorded a live jazz band?
If yes, where can we hear it?

 

[Andy Sneap]

well aware of the % and groove functions, just if the drummer, like I said is just sucking so bad you really dont want any of his so called feel. You kinda get into a bit of a moral battle.

 

[JBroll]

1. thats a bit out of context. i meant *12 min long songs in that style (different types of singing, distortion/acoustic/distortion, and while all their songs are long for the most part, name one over 10 min). I can't think of any Metallica song where I could say "x" song off Shogun is a copy of it.

2. never said you or anyone else should be jealous. I said "I'm jealous". and the whole point of that was he can do more than said "cookiecore" vocals.

based on what you said i'm going to assume you didn't read what I wrote and just said that b/c im supporting them, but maybe im entirely off base.
however you pretty much prove my point about nitpicking some unimportant/unrelated aspect just to bash them.

certainly is a dick-move if allegations are true and they knowingly lied and then knowingly chose to not correct/retract/apologize for the statements. but that's a lot of conditions and shouldn't automatically mean the music is terrible just because of that.

Metallica has shown there dislike for the Justice sound. does that automatically mean they think flemming is to blame and they are disrespecting the guy who engineered their, what most say, best albums?

(1) That could have been phrased better, then.

(2) Think 'Royal we', not an accusation of an accusation of jealousy.

(3) Yep, off base. I say plenty of stupid things unassisted, it's easier to find those than to stretch things.

(4)'Nitpicking'... consider that confused sarcasm because I couldn't be entirely sure if you were serious.

(5) Metallica comparisons in defense of a band's idiotic comments about one thing or another *really* aren't as effective as you'd hope... especially with all the talk about how they're just rehashing old Metallica stuff anyway.

Jeff

 

[LSD-Studio]

and how many of you have decided to correct one part of a song trying to leave the rest "au naturel" only to realize the rest sounds shit once the said bit has been tightened up?

oh yes, over and over again...and I'm still trying.
just seems like it can't work going from a tightened part to an untouched one .....always gives a weird transition.

Andy, have you ever recorded a live jazz band?
If yes, where can we hear it?

I did so, and it was fucking great.

( jazzy medley )

would love to do it again.