the pro tools back lash

paladin shredder said:
I will continue to use drum replacement until i'm in a situation where I don't have to. However, my favorite drum sound right now is Necrophagist's "Epitaph" which i believe is all natural.
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Seizure. said:
I think i heard brandy say kick is augmented with the same sample/kicksound.

But i'm not sure, awesome drummer though! super shy dude btw haha
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I remembered Brandy saying that there were like 4-5 sample tracks he used on that kick. I was blown away by that because I thought the same thing "its all natural".

Just as James was getting at with Jens' productions with Opeth, the most "natural sounding" drum productions aren't always natural and don't always "take away" dynamics from a performance particularly in great drummers such as Martin Lopez and Axe. I recognize in most modern productions, not just metal but generally there are tons of samples used, listen to the radio. The way modern music is listened to ie: cell phones, mp3 players, internet, tv, etc. all different and less than optimal mediums for true authentic listening, all widely used. I think the use of these techniques are absolutely essential to maximizing the experience regardless of the listening environment.
 
ahjteam said:
I could name 12 from Finland alone in just 10 minutes (all professional drummers like Kai Hahto, Antti Lehtinen, Anssi Nykänen, Sami Kuoppamäki, Sampo Neuvonen, Rainer Tuomikanto, Sami Latva, Heikki Saari, Ville Sahakangas, Baba Utriainen, Heikki Malmberg, Jarmo Pikka) and if it would be nessecary, I could get phonenumbers from 11 of them in just a few phonecalls. All humans, but still professional level drummers and with exception of Anssi Nykänen, Antti Lehtinen and Sami Kuoppamäki who are all arounders (but I know that they have played on metalrecords), those are mainly metal drummers. And considering that the recording budgets in Finland are usually about 5-50 thousand euros (for example as far as know, the most expensive commercial studio, Finnvox, is about 1000 euros per day with the engineer (the Sibelius Academy studio might be a little bit more expensive tho)), which is way below the budgets in the USA, I wouldn't consider that a bad deal to hire a studio and and a professional studio session players in here. Thats why many metal bands go to Sweden to record their albums; It's just so much cheaper to do there.
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I hate you. There are no good studios here, and only a handful of "professional" level players to work with where I live. Time to move...
 
If you're using more than a pair of stereo room mics to record, then it's not live.

What these "musicians" fail to recognize is that multitrack recording is already "cheating", so to speak. Did they overdub the vocals? Did they overdub the guitar solos? Were they sitting down while they were playing? Were their guitar cabinets isolated from the drum kit? Did they EQ/compress/limit/gate/expand/reverberate/delay/phase/flange/etc anything after it was recorded?

If so, it's not live.

Oh of course- it's about the capturing the live "performance". Well in that case, I expect they nailed each track in one take, because that's about all you'd get if you were on stage. As many of you have already alluded to, their's nothing particularly special about someone who has the time to sit down and play something fifteen thousand times until they get that one, "magical" take. What happens then if a band sounds robitically tight on their own, without editing? Is the engineer then obliged to drop in a few a mis-hits here and there, tune the vocals a few cents flat, nudge the guitar tracks around a bit until they're out of sync all in order to get that "live feel"?

Look, if I go to see Lord Of The Rings or Spider-Man or Star Wars or any other blockbuster movie I know full well that much of what I'm seeing on the screen isn't "real". I know those giant, elephant-dinosaur creatures are CG. I know that Toby Maguire isn't really swinging around downtown Manhattan. I know lightsabres are fake; although I desperately wish they weren't.

But that's part of what makes modern movies so entertaining?! They're larger than life. Advancements in technology separate the special effects of contemporary thrillers from those used in "Attack Of The 50 Foot Woman" and generally speaking, the latest CG stuff looks and feels better. If I wanted to see these things performed in real life, I'd go see a live stage show.

I've seen Trivium play live (not by choice) and it was such a dismal, hack-job performance of 2-bit, wannabe, Metallica covers, I decided "Hey, I'm never buying this band's albums if this what they sound like live". So in one respect, you might say it was their "big, raw, totally-amazingly-awesome" live sound that destroyed their chances of ever receiving a monetary contribution to their worthless existence from me.

If a band like Trivium really wants to preserve their "live" feel, it might be a good idea to incorporate a few choruses without vocals considering their singer usually expects the crowd to do his job for him after he's thrown his voice out 10 minutes into their set.

In certain instances, it is nice to retain the original groove or feel of performance but, for bands like Trivium, what this is really about is shamelessly advertising their percieved superiority and by doing so, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding for what recorded music is all about- taking something good, and making it better.

What's fashionable comes and goes. Fiteen years from now, when everyone is "live" tracking, all the musicians will be raving about how the tight, produced sound from the early 21st century was the greatest thing ever invented. And by then, they'll be even fewer guys like Andy who will know how to achieve it.
 
colynomial said:
Look, if I go to see Lord Of The Rings or Spider-Man or Star Wars or any other blockbuster movie I know full well that much of what I'm seeing on the screen isn't "real". I know those giant, elephant-dinosaur creatures are CG.
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um, not always. The T-Rex in Jurassic Park was a robot. And some of the monsters in Doom and Alien were really a guy in a suit. And many of the walkers in Star Wars were puppets. But everyone thought they were CG at first and thats where the magic happens. When you think something is something it really isn't. Foley guys are one of these guys, for example the scene in Cliffhanger where Stallone shoots a guy from below the ice, the bullets going thru the ice was just a sound where the foley guy was throwing huge bricks of rocks to ice in a small inland bay in Helsinki. And we did some nice foley effects with my roommate a few days ago for the oncoming Iron Sky movie (he is doing the post stuff for the movie, I just helped out so I could see how to do it). We dropped a few drops of water on a hot stove, pitched it down and got a huge explosion. And then I blew to the microphone to get an earthquake sound. And dropped "hitchhikers guide to galaxy" on the floor and got some nice AK47 and UZI sounds after some processing.

For example the clip I did a while ago that was something like this too, more about the tone than the performance which sucked ass (the full description is still somewhere in the rate my tone forum. edit: here). I have fooled a lot of people to think that I played a diffent instrument than what I really played. Like that guitar at the beginning. Its my Ibanez artcore electric guitar that many people thought was an acoustic guitar, but it was the drums that set many people off their tracks. A lot of people thought that I really played a real drumkit (especially one producer guy from our class who said that "the snare could've been a little tighter" was a bit funny one) when I was really just jiggling my fat thighs with me clappers and then distorted the track to hell.
 
^

I totally agree with you. None the less, there is an element of "studio trickery" even when it comes to using puppets and models. You're still using recorded film to suggest that something is bigger than it really is. Whether someone thinks CG is better/worse than models, puppets, costuming, etc is a matter of opinion. Personally I prefer the hyperrealism of CG to the cheesiness of puppeteering, but I don't intend to suggest that CG is objectively better than scale modelling. The analogy is simply that personally, I don't "expect" a recorded album to be entirely real however in order to validate whether or not a band is truly deserving of my patronage, I go see them play live. In my mind, it's just a different animal, that's all I'm trying to say.

Unfortunately, I think that the vast majority of contemporary metal acts who argue that "live" tracking is the only way to go are more concerned with projecting a kind of elitist image than anything else. Presumably most of these bands are performing live in which case they have every opportunity to "prove" how talented they are as players and convey that "live" sound. They don't need to go video blogging about how revolutionary and unique they are for recording an album that ultimately still involves a computer with all kinds of digital plugins simply because they didn't edit their takes. I would take their claims more seriously if they were recording directly to tape, but even that is a matter of subjectivity.
 
wow...this thread has gone on for way too long

maybe if you'd all stop bickering and practice your instruments, andy wouldn't have to bitch about the shitty bands he's stuck working with
 
Rob Logic said:
I remembered Brandy saying that there were like 4-5 sample tracks he used on that kick. I was blown away by that because I thought the same thing "its all natural".

Just as James was getting at with Jens' productions with Opeth, the most "natural sounding" drum productions aren't always natural and don't always "take away" dynamics from a performance particularly in great drummers such as Martin Lopez and Axe. I recognize in most modern productions, not just metal but generally there are tons of samples used, listen to the radio. The way modern music is listened to ie: cell phones, mp3 players, internet, tv, etc. all different and less than optimal mediums for true authentic listening, all widely used. I think the use of these techniques are absolutely essential to maximizing the experience regardless of the listening environment.
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People are obviously forgotting that samples are most commonly used on drums just to compliment them. This is the case especially when we come to bands like Opeth and Necrophagist who nail their songs perfectly where ever they play. One must remember that using a kick sample with natural kick drum may be there just for extra thud, click, definition or whatever that can't be achieved with the miced sound.

Btw I also thought Epitaph was completely natural.
 
The thing i also have with sample replacement is that i'm kind of afraid that when were 10/20 years further that we will look back at it like we now look back at 80's synthpop and the phil collins drumsound haha
 
You do realise that most of these bands use triggers live for exactly the same reason they use them on the records. Also Sound Replacer, Drumagog, Aptrigger, Drum Rehab and all trigger brains are velocity sensitive.. You can trigger drums and keep the dynamics of the performance you know.
 
Seizure. said:
The thing i also have with sample replacement is that i'm kind of afraid that when were 10/20 years further that we will look back at it like we now look back at 80's synthpop and the phil collins drumsound haha
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Are you suggesting that there is something wrong with phil collins' innovative gated reverb sound? Eventho you might not like it, but that was basically the drumsound of the 80s that he created, which I think is a lot. I mean that is one of those things that you most likely wouldn't have ever known if somebody else wouldn't have done it. Kinda same with the Chers autotuned voice.
 
Seizure. said:
The thing i also have with sample replacement is that i'm kind of afraid that when were 10/20 years further that we will look back at it like we now look back at 80's synthpop and the phil collins drumsound haha
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i don't doubt we will.... that's the nature of time and progress... still, any technique done well/tastefully/appropriately will stand the test of time. Case and point: they veritable fuck-tonnes of classic rock albums that are loaded with sampled drums, going back to the early 80's, thx to guys like Bob Clearmountain.
 
James Murphy said:
sure, unless it does. and often it does.

it's all about the aesthetic you're going for, and what's in fashion to a certain degree.... but rather than complain, why not just make metal recordings that set a new standard and a new fashion?... i await your excellence.
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I know this is back in the thread but I want to share my thoughts on this:

I used to play in a band called Dam (UK). The band released two albums through Candlelight. The first one I can't listen to - don't like the production, playing and the memories). However on the second one (The Difference Engine) I decided I wanted to record in Eastcoste Studios, which is a beautiful vintage studio in West London that has been there since the 70's... Paul Mccartney's pair of Pultecs are there, the MCI desk from Island records... all the vintage classic units and mics, 16 track tape machine... and so on.

We recorded the drums with a few ambient mics (RCA BX44, Vintage U87's Hansa technique), FET U47's for kick, Coles 4038 as overheads, Silver AKG 414 for bottom snare, 57 on top, MD421 for toms... Nice.

Bass through a very old SVT head and a very old Ampeg cab, miced up with a FET U47 and a MD 421.

Guitar through an ancient wicker front mesa Boogie combo and a an old JMP - we tried 57 and Royer 121.

For Vox, SM7.

We played live, all went to tape and then to pro tools. A good friend of mine who is a pretty renowned producer did the album (I don't like to get involved in the engineering of my own music).

So it sounds very "organic" and "different". We did use a little bit of sound replacement on the snare and kick, using my own kit samples that we recorded there.

The result was great (IMO). Sounds very different to most metal things out there... however, the production was slain by many reviewers and it didn't sell much.

So all I'm trying to say is that it's a gamble to come up with something different - particularly when you're not a famous band.

If anyone is interested in having a listen, let me know, I'd be curious to hear what do you think.

Cheers,

Gomez
 
elmuchoescadawg said:
You do realise that most of these bands use triggers live for exactly the same reason they use them on the records. Also Sound Replacer, Drumagog, Aptrigger, Drum Rehab and all trigger brains are velocity sensitive.. You can trigger drums and keep the dynamics of the performance you know.
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We got ripped by a reviewer for using "those terrible electronic kicks" claiming they ruined a bands sound. I wouldn't have minded the stupidity so much if we hadn't been supporting Ministry at the time!!
 
I've recently had no internet.. and I can't believe what I'm reading in this topic!..

A lot of great points made by Andy, and Mr Murphy - as well as others.

I've watched that Trivium video quickly, and I still can't really believe what I heard,.. but ah well, I never really liked them past their first two efforts.

I guess it'll come to a point where people have to use technology, or they have to extend the deadlines and be more prepared.
It'll have to go one way or the other, since musicians [generally] are rarely going to become super-awesome within a couple years.
 
... James, your inbox is full, so here it is. I own the publishing for this song, so I guess this is okay.

This is my personal favorite from the album, yes there are sloppy parts, but we wanted to keep it live and editing to the minimum (yes I'm a 70's prog dinosaur).


https://www.yousendit.com/download/TTZsK2VuQVNUME9Ga1E9PQ

I'm not sure if this is your cup of tea, but let me know what do you guys think.

Thanks

Gomez
 
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