the pro tools back lash

[Seizure.]

So if you were to remix that album you would probably replace kick and toms? Imo that alone is a slap in that drummers face.
And i'm not talking before recording but remixing.
I'd much rather hear him hit those plastic tubs then perfectly tuned samples, and the fact that you can hear him kick his kickdrum harder is what makes that record cool to me.

Sure, it would sound better, but the vibe of that album and what makes that band great would be loooonng gone.

Gotta say, thats one of there better sounding albums haha, the other albums sound horrid ghehe

 

[aramism]

i don't see how there is an argument. all these tricks are done because the music requires it. you guys forget that this is all a business and the band is the product. the labels decide that the product needs to sound like X. andy and james are hired to make X. X is nearly impossible without the use of editing and all that jazz. for starters, it is impossible music to play with that level of clarity and consistency for the amount of time needed. what's so hard to understand???

take job for a cowboy, awesome mix, shitty band. i saw them live, sounded NOTHING like the record. these bands should look at themselves first. they are out of their league writing and recording music that their real musicianship doesn't match.

you can't take music like the black album which is less technically challenging and had a fucking 10 year production time and use it as an example. it's not comparing apples to apples and it is a total bogus argument with no validity whatsoever. you find me a band that can record high bpm double bass parts with all those tom rolls and crazy shit tightly live all together and i will find you a band that doesn't exist, or if it does is very scarce. i'm sure if the drummers practiced 8 hours a day for months with a metronome they might get close but in the real world with the way the music business is there is no time for that and the labels give bands no time. unless you are at the top of the pile when it comes to major label big acts you don't have the luxury of time. it's like TOUR RECORD TOUR RECORD TOUR TOUR RECORD. etc. etc.

this is an analogy i came up with when thinking about this. most of these bands are ugly ass women with the bodies of 12 year olds boys. after a boob job, lipo, ass enhancement, visual touch up, etc. etc. and they can be made into pornstars. don't believe me??? look at a lot of earlier photos of your favorite pornstars, they looked ugly, no tits, no ass, nothing 5 years ago. through all enhancements they look hot all of a sudden. porn companies market them and people buy it and view it and do all types of obscene things with it. now, if said pornstar complains that she does not want the silicone or botox or whatever the hell they use and does a video all natural and she looks disgusting and no one except 5 weird people buy it instead of 50,000 who is she going to blame??? the makers of silicone? no. she can blame herself for being ugly in the first place. even if not pornstars all these hot actresses and signers look not as attractive without the surgery and the makeup. so unless you possess natural beauty, or in this case, the ability to play what you write with consistency... shut the fuck up.

 

[James Murphy]

So if you were to remix that album you would probably replace kick and toms? Imo that alone is a slap in that drummers face.
And i'm not talking before recording but remixing.
I'd much rather hear him hit those plastic tubs then perfectly tuned samples, and the fact that you can hear him kick his kickdrum harder is what makes that record cool to me.

Sure, it would sound better, but the vibe of that album and what makes that band great would be loooonng gone.

i refer you to my previous quote: "i also don't really think they should change what they do..... i enjoy it as is."

 

[Seizure.]

Didn't saw that post yet , but i gave you an example of a drummer in an extreme metalband with a sound that doesn't include sample replacement

Its just like i mentioned, i'd rather hear that, then a perfectly replaced and quantized drumming machine.

 

[James Murphy]

Didn't saw that post yet , but i gave you an example of a drummer in an extreme metalband with a sound that doesn't include sample replacement

Its just like i mentioned, i'd rather hear that, then a perfectly replaced and quantized drumming machine.

and it's just like i mentioned, show me that and i'll show you a killer drummer.

... and in this case, a band who's style, vibe, and years long underground cred lends itself well to that type of unpolished sound.

 

[cobhc]

I can see this slowly turning into another "Is it ok to record things at a slower speed so I can play it correctly, and then speed it back up?" conversation. At the end of the day if it sounds good, it sounds good, I personally don't care whether samples were used on the drums, whether the engineer re-recorded everything himself or whether they used DFHS because the drummer couldn't nail it in the studio. We're talking about how things sound on an album here, and it doesn't matter how the album gets to where it's going sonically, as long as it gets there. Live is a different beast, that's where the band HAS to be able to play their shit properly.

Let me propose a situation to everyone who doesn't like the idea of sample replacement and editing tweaks (quantizing, tightening stuff up, etc.). What would you do if you had a pro band in the studio, with a record company pushing you to release the album on time, and the drummer (who is usually fucking cock on with his drumming) was ill but could bluff his way through it well enough so some editing and some sample replacement would sort it and make it sound how they wanted it? Would you tell them you couldn't do it, because that's not the way you work, thus giving you a bad name to the band, the record company, and doing yourself out of a serious amount of cash? Or would you just do what needed to be done to make a good sounding record? I know what I'd personally do, sure I'd prefer the drummer to come back and do the tracks when he's feeling well and can nail them, but I'd do what needed to be done.

And the fact is, like James said most bands in modern metal NEED some kind of help with their performances, whether it's due to my previously mentioned situation, or the fact that they're technically not good enough. I'm sure I've seen mentioned before by some of you guys something along the lines that if a band can't quite nail their stuff in the studio, then as long as the record sounds good, it's not your problem if they can't nail stuff live.

Take all this how you want it, but I just think that you have to do what needs to be done in any situation, whether you agree with it or not.

Hope I don't offend anyone.

Cheers.

 

[Mulder]

im arguing about the point that its one of those things that is "de-evolutioning" the modern musician.

Drugs, beer & stupid genes do that. Samples try to mask it so it won't reach your ears.

You dont have to hit the kicks, snare or toms consistently, because you can just samplereplace it.

It's almost impossible for most of the drummers to do so, it's just bound to the genre. Look at the origin of the drumkit, like an old Ludwig kick & snare, and imagine playing blasts on it.

Maybe some new Kickskins with build-in triggers will hit the market, aimed at very sensitive triggercapture but not at acoustic sound? We'll see. Stuff evolves with new genres. If Les Paul hadn't filled his acoustig guitar up with liquid plaster Metal wouldn't be here.

Not that its a good example of the perfect drumsound, but listen to Racer X - Scarified, and the dynamics that you have in the kick.
If that kick would have been samplereplaced, you wouldnt get that driving feel out of it.p

Lots of multisamples can do that. The standard PT drumreplacer only has room for three samples.. Yeah, that WILL sound like a drummachine trying to be cool.

And you are absolutely right that no drummer is as perfect as a triggered sample, and thats my exact fuckin' point.
Why is the modern sound based on a perfection that cant be reached in real life?

Because the instruments that are being used for it come from a background that wasn't designed for the genre. Due to the demand new drumkits will be made. New skills will be developed.

And i do understand that you sometimes HAVE to do these things because of labels & deadlines pushing you.

9AM, phone rings. "At twelve I will be nearby your place, can you have two songs of singer XX ready?"

Recorded, arranged and mixed in two hours. That was fun. Ok, I drummed with my fingers om a sampler, but nobody complained.

But dont you agree that it would sound better if you just got more time and could get it done properly?
(Im not asking whether thats the reality or not.)

It all depends on how much the musician understands about the process of creating canned music. If he/she does, you simply start working and encounter little trouble. If overconfident newbies come over who are certain they WILL reinvent the recordingtradition you need some serious peopleskills to get a proper master finished.

 

[Seizure.]

and it's just like i mentioned, show me that and i'll show you a killer drummer.

... and in this case, a band who's style, vibe, and years long underground cred lends itself well to that type of unpolished sound.

I think i just did.

Anyway.. because i also tell the same opinions i post here to bands, i get more and more bands that share that opinion, and these bands are the ones that are able to throw it down live, fully rehearsed.

Those are not allways the ones with the truckloads of money, but i'd rather record 10 of those bands to make the same money i do recording one big band i need to edit for several days and lose my fun recording music on.

 

["Evil" Aidy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notuern
The problem is that if you do it right, you dont need them!



well get to crackin' lads... let's hear 'em.

Haha! No chance of that from me, being a small-time solo/amateur/hobbyist/bedroom quarterback (that's a cool term).

Hence, nothing "right" has ever been sent to me either.

I should've made it clear that I was referring to yourself and Andy as "doing it right" already, and the replacement samples being used commonly being samples captured of the kit being used during tracking, like you said James (with the new skins on etc).

If you can record it right first time and you are happy with how it sounds, then that's magic. But if it hasn't turned out so good, don't settle for less! I got no probs with throwing a different triggered sample in there, if that's what it needs. I can appreciate it must be tough having to stick to tight deadlines and deal with poor players.

Andy & James, would you say that most of the drum stuff that is sent to you nowadays for mixing, requires a kick or snare sample from your personal library? Or are you predominantly just using samples from other parts of the recording to touch up the dynamics and inconsistent hits?

Lots of good opinions and info on this thread - made me chuckle when Andy mentioned the A & R guy with the recording schedule.

 

[ArtGarceau]

I agree. What's worse is getting a band that is not only un-rehearsed, but they can't play to save their lives anyway. I had a band ask if they nailed each part once if I could piece their song together. Of course that is now common practice, but it still just irks me. What is the point of playing if you can't play? How can you be proud of it?

 

[abyssofdreams]

I can see this slowly turning into another "Is it ok to record things at a slower speed so I can play it correctly, and then speed it back up?" conversation. At the end of the day if it sounds good, it sounds good, I personally don't care whether samples were used on the drums, whether the engineer re-recorded everything himself or whether they used DFHS because the drummer couldn't nail it in the studio......

While I agree with that absolutely, I think Andy ranted about the (current) attitude bands bring into the studio or the overall lack of passion and work that is put into the MUSIC itself and therefore it is the job of the engineer to fix lacking talent and practice afterwards. I think it doesn't matter HOW things are getting fixed, it is after all the engineer who has to fix. And this problem of unprepared musicians could be minimized if there was e.g. a more flexible schedule coming from the labels, more prepared musicians before they enter the studio.

This way it would be a win-win situation for both parties. Things get faster done and the engineer would have more time for "creative" work, supporting the sound and direction the band wants to achieve. There's no room for that if everything has to be finished in a rush.

 

[Limak]

I'm not even close to the point where I could say ,,audio engineer,, about myself, hell, I'm not even close to the point where I could say musician about me either. Based on that I think I can say I'm casual bread-eater consumer of music.
Not so long ago I wasn't into all this recording at all, and I still exactly remember how i ,,consumed,, the music I got then. Having said that, first of all, casual listener has no idea what most of those AE tricks are. Fuck, I'll say more: most of them(if not all) couldn't tell the fucking diffrence if it's heavily sampled or not and stuff like that unless you told them(then of course magically all this ,,fakeness,, they never noticed before gets obvious). It's a perception of sound that matters for them. I'm sure if you had a modern sounding mix and added bit more reverb and lowpassed it at some ridiculous frequency they would go ,,wow thats old-school sounding,,.
Thats about casual listeners, I'm talking about those that are not into AE stuff and playing instruments stuff at all.

Musicians are taking it to a whole new level( believe or not, minority of music consumers). Well not to rant too much, to me sound is all that matters. When I grab a CD I expect sonical perfection, sound that will blow my fucking head off and I don't care how it was done. When I want organic, natural, live performance I will go see the band live. That's obvious(for me) diffrence majority people are missing out.
If a live show is too perfect people are starting shitting on it ,,bah it sounds like on cd, nothing new, whatever,, I've met alot of people with that attitude. Then again they want perfect sounding cd's which contain the live imperfection within them. I'll say: fuck it, live is live and recorded is recorded.
As the last part of my rant I'm talking with 2 bands now, both of them want to record their demos, both have no money for recording studio at all.
When I said ,,ok I know you dont have cash and place to get it done we'll do it my way, it will be cheap and will get a more decent results than recording a rehearsal room with 1 mic,, they were like ,,oh cool nice I've heard some of the stuff you mixed it sounds nice awesome!,,
But then to be sincere I have to say ,,but we will do it my way so it will be...,, and here I tell about reamping/sample replacing etc etc. Then they go like ,,uh you know what, well, uhm, not thanks well record it our way, we want natural live sound,,.
Now guess fucking what, one band just recorded drums for their demo - with 2 mics on a WHOLE set and in a basement room without ANY acoustic treatment at ALL.
Second band recorded their whole demo with 3 microphones, live ofc.
Well you can guess how results sounded like... Honestly I don't get it, the casual listener theyre aiming their stuff at won't give a shit how it was done, first thing he will notice is that he can't hear a thing in all this mess...

 

[Kazrog]

I like the Sneap sound, it's what brought me here. I also like raw, fucked up sounding productions like the new Satyricon. I think a world where diversity exists is good.

 

[Seizure.]

Ghehehe, what i'm also kinda trying to say but then a tad shorter hehe

 

[paladin shredder]

Andy, thanks for starting this thread.

To me, a good producer will always bring the best of of a band no matter what the situation is, whether the artists aren't prepared or performing well, or there's a time crunch that puts unnecessary pressure on those involved. I don't think there is anyone here that blames you for the production techniques you use, if anything we should be grateful that you share your techniques so we can all make better productions. It's a shame that there are producers and bands that judge another producer's work based on their recording/mixing techniques and not the amount of hard work and time spent dedicated into not only making an amazing album, but bringing out the un-used potential a band has.

The first Andy Sneap produced album I ever bought was Ascendancy, and I thought those were the best drums I had ever heard at that time. And now I find out they are all fake??!!! haha

I will continue to use drum replacement until i'm in a situation where I don't have to. However, my favorite drum sound right now is Necrophagist's "Epitaph" which i believe is all natural.

 

[aramism]

I like the Sneap sound, it's what brought me here. I also like raw, fucked up sounding productions like the new Satyricon. I think a world where diversity exists is good.

all in all this is the best post as far as where my position is. it really depends on the music.

 

[Eschatologist]

I like the Sneap sound, it's what brought me here. I also like raw, fucked up sounding productions like the new Satyricon. I think a world where diversity exists is good.

Spoken for truth. I wouldn't want the first few Emperor albums produced any differently, it worked for what it was. One of my favorite bands is Nazxul, from Australia. They have this muddy/soupy production on their EP, and their only full length is similar...but it works for them, I think the impact would be lost with a clean, mechanical and precise record.

 

[Seizure.]

However, my favorite drum sound right now is Necrophagist's "Epitaph" which i believe is all natural.

I think i heard brandy say kick is augmented with the same sample/kicksound.

But i'm not sure, awesome drummer though! super shy dude btw haha

 

[LSD-Studio]

Seizure:
check your PM

 

[Uladyne]

...she can blame herself for being ugly in the first place.

Hahahahaha. Awesome.