the pro tools back lash

I'd be interested to know what spurred this thread (as in, name some names, haha).

I've found that the dudes who are so against replacement and other studio tricks are the ones that:

a.)Don't know what they are talking about at all in terms of studio work

b.)don't know how to do it right

c.) need it the most.

Samplereplacement is the thing i want to strike the hardest at, reamping and doing small fixes here and there is ok, but samplereplacing is in my book drummerreplacing.
To me, samplereplacing drums is the same fuckin' thing as samplereplacing a guitartrack.
"Hear this guitar sound? Its much fatter and we cant possibly get this here, so now we are going to cut these chords and notes appart an replace yours with theirs! AINT THAT GREAT!?" .... :Smug:

Why dont you guys tell the bands to record with digital drums in stead?
Or heck, why not program them?
Its essentially the same.

But as i already said, reamping is fine by my book, because thats more to me like going to a studio that can record drums properly instead of samplereplacing it.
Sampels are samples, and no matter how you turn it around, it will still be a triggered fuckin' sample.

And in the end, isnt that was this thread is all about?
The loss of talent because of the tools that let crappy musicians and shitstudios to dish out "good" material?
 
wrong... often the samples used are from the same kit, taken on the first day of recording while the skins are fresh. anyway, you show me the metal drummer who plays consistently enough and can do so on time and on budget, and doesn't charge a prohibitive fee, and i'll hire him for ALL my recordings. otherwise drummers are human and have some dynamic consistency issues no matter how good they are.... properly, samples are used primarily to even out dynamics so that you can hear the double kick and fast snare the whole time behind the wall of guitars.

you are confusing proper sample enhancement/replacement, with all the bedroom productions using DFH or EZdrummer and such. sure, there are a lot of shitty drum sample enhancement/replacement jobs out there...... and there are a lot of shitty guitar tones.... that doesn't invalidate the use of the technique. it simply means that there are some people doing it that perhaps don't know very well what they are doing or why.

sorry, those of us working professionally have to deliver a solid product regardless of how badly it may have been recorded before we get it, or how poor the musicians are when they show up. Oz mentioned sending poor musicians home... but when you're working for a label and you have a deadline and the bad player is a key member of the band, you don't really get that luxury.

i'm tired of all the "bedroom quarterbacks" pissing on everything. it's quite easy to sit at home and work with local bands and have all sorts of lofty opinions about how things "should" go... often though you just have to deal with the reality in front of you... and you have a company that's paid/paying your fee.

and it's not like we are discussing very many bad sounding records here.... even the ones some of you are complaining about, like SAS, sound effin' great.... and you know it.

simmer down and quit crying about the tools we have at our disposal. take a stance and decide not to use them if you want, or just use them properly and get over yourselves.
 
I think what is going on here is dissatisfaction / insecurity as a band. They know they sound like every other metal band or cant progress in their song writing and cant create something different, so the "recording process" is their object of criticism.
 
wrong... often the samples used are from the same kit, taken on the first day of recording while the skins are fresh. anyway, you show me the metal drummer who plays consistently enough and can do so on time and on budget, and doesn't charge a prohibitive fee, and i'll hire him for ALL my recordings. otherwise drummers are human and have some dynamic consistency issues no matter how good they are.... this samples are used primarily to even out dynamics so that you can hear the double kick and fast snare the whole time behind the wall of guitars.

you are confusing proper sample enhancement/replacement, with all the bedroom productions using DHF or EXdrummer and such. sure, there are a lot of shitty drum sample enhancement/replacement jobs out there...... and there are a lot of shitty guitar tones.... that doesn't invalidate the use of the technique. it simply means that there are some people doing it that perhaps don't know very well what they are doing or why.

sorry, those of us working professionally have to deliver a solid product regardless of how badly it may have been recorded before we get it, or how poor the musicians are when they show up. Oz mentioned sending poor musicians home... but when you're working for a label and you have a deadline and the bad player is a key member of the band, you don't really get that luxury.

i'm tired of all the "bedroom quarterbacks" pissing on everything. it's quite easy to sit at home and work with local bands and have all sorts of lofty opinions about how things "should" go... often though you just have to deal with the reality in front of you... and you have a complany that's paid/paying your fee.

and it's not like we are discussing very many bad sounding records here.... even the ones some of you are complaining about, like SAS, sound effin' great.

perfect post!
 
I was going to mention the insane deadlines but didnt want to sound like I was on a rant, so I'm glad you bought that up James. The bedroom quarterbacks as you say (I like that, I think that may stick) haven't had the joy of dealing with labels who have scheduled release dates and mastering before a note was written. My favourite thing is when the A+R guy comes to me with a recording schedule! ewwwwkaaaay! The best example I can give recently was the new Unearth album which saw me breaking national speed limits to get to DHL at east midlands airport with 20 minutes to spare. Although I'm generally happy with the end results, this kind of unnecessary pressure doesnt make for a constructive and inventive studio environment.

(I should add adam did a great job tracking the Unearth album , which is how it got finished on time. Didn't even need to reamp there, shock horror!)
 
Oz mentioned sending poor musicians home... but when you're working for a label and you have a deadline and the bad player is a key member of the band, you don't really get that luxury.


I figured as much, but didn't want to presume anything.


FWIW, I've worked with some out-of-town groups & run into pretty much the same problem. Bass player isn't up to snuff, drummer can't play to a click, singer is out of key on everything and you've got to grit your teeth and plow through it. Sending them home isn't always an option & I really hate this job on days like that.

In the end, it's really unfair for the bands to blame the producer for trying to make the best record possible.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notuern
The problem is that if you do it right, you dont need them!

[quote="Evil" Aidy;7906310]Absolutely dude, good point![/quote]

well get to crackin' lads... let's hear 'em.
 
While I agree with everything said here, I do have to say that reamping can change 'vibe' a bit; As a guitar player, I know I play slightly differently depending on what amp I'm playing through - it just happens naturally, in response to how the amp responds to pick attack.

It's not going to make or break a guitar tone or mix, by any means, but playing through a POD and reamping with a 5150 as opposed to tracking with a 5150 in the first place are going to have slightly different vibes from each other.
 
While I agree with everything said here, I do have to say that reamping can change 'vibe' a bit; As a guitar player, I know I play slightly differently depending on what amp I'm playing through - it just happens naturally, in response to how the amp responds to pick attack.

It's not going to make or break a guitar tone or mix, by any means, but playing through a POD and reamping with a 5150 as opposed to tracking with a 5150 in the first place are going to have slightly different vibes from each other.

well, the POD has latency, the 5150 doesn't
 
It's not going to make or break a guitar tone or mix, by any means, but playing through a POD and reamping with a 5150 as opposed to tracking with a 5150 in the first place are going to have slightly different vibes from each other.

Well, I track through a 5150 & still wind up reamping it because I get obsessive about tone.... I might change mic position or the amp's eq slightly, or add a second mic, or try a different preamp. Any gripes about that method?
 
The best example I can give recently was the new Unearth album which saw me breaking national speed limits to get to DHL at east midlands airport with 20 minutes to spare. Although I'm generally happy with the end results, this kind of unnecessary pressure doesnt make for a constructive and inventive studio environment.

^ Blimey, I didnt realise things had got this manic! This thread has been an interesting read so far, the Trivium stuff looks like a right ball ache. How much do a lot of these guys in even the bigger bands know about the recording side I do wonder. It strikes me as a similar situation to many fields of work where your customers begin to know enough to begin tinker with and then chaos ensuses lol.
 
Samplereplacement is the thing i want to strike the hardest at, reamping and doing small fixes here and there is ok, but samplereplacing is in my book drummerreplacing.
To me, samplereplacing drums is the same fuckin' thing as samplereplacing a guitartrack.
"Hear this guitar sound? Its much fatter and we cant possibly get this here, so now we are going to cut these chords and notes appart an replace yours with theirs! AINT THAT GREAT!?" .... :Smug:

Why dont you guys tell the bands to record with digital drums in stead?
Or heck, why not program them?
Its essentially the same.

But as i already said, reamping is fine by my book, because thats more to me like going to a studio that can record drums properly instead of samplereplacing it.
Sampels are samples, and no matter how you turn it around, it will still be a triggered fuckin' sample.

And in the end, isnt that was this thread is all about?
The loss of talent because of the tools that let crappy musicians and shitstudios to dish out "good" material?

I think James' response was better than anything I could hope to give (as he IS doing this on a pro level), but my reply would be that IF you use samples in a way that pretty much removes the drummer from the equation, then gee, I wonder why you needed to do that? I think that fits in perfectly with why the pros are on the rant, considering the dudes griping from these bands are the ones who may have necessitated the use of the "undesirable" studio tricks in the first place (if indeed these guys are having to "drummer replace").

I think above all, sample replacement and/or blending is as much as time/cost cutting move as anything. With the deadline stuff Andy and James posted, and obviously limited budgets for bands, makes it a little harder these days to get a product on par with the greats from 15-20 years ago (i.e. the Black album et al).

It blows my mind that anyone who felt behooved to join this forum would balk at the tools necessary to accomplish the task at hand. I'm far from the level of most people on here, but I get paid to do my work, and I'll be damned if I'm not practically forced to utilize measures such as these discussed to make a quality product...If you leave it up to the bands, seriously, how good do you think these rekkids would sound? Maybe it's an ego thing, but on the crap that is put out there with my name on it, I *gasp* do want it to sound at least decent. EVen if you don't feel compelled to use these methods, the out and out disdain on a forum of people who do (many whom are waaay above your level) seems unnecessarily rude. They experience things within the job that none of us here really have, and their opinion based on experience gives much more creedence to their viewpoint (IMHO, of course).

I get the sense that some people think sample replacement or blending is taking the easy way out. But, I think browsing Myspace bands and seeing how many do use it, crap still sounds like crap. The are more variables to a recording than just throwing up some nice drum tones.
 
wrong... often the samples used are from the same kit, taken on the first day of recording while the skins are fresh. anyway, you show me the metal drummer who plays consistently enough and can do so on time and on budget, and doesn't charge a prohibitive fee, and i'll hire him for ALL my recordings. otherwise drummers are human and have some dynamic consistency issues no matter how good they are.... properly, samples are used primarily to even out dynamics so that you can hear the double kick and fast snare the whole time behind the wall of guitars.

you are confusing proper sample enhancement/replacement, with all the bedroom productions using DHF or EZdrummer and such. sure, there are a lot of shitty drum sample enhancement/replacement jobs out there...... and there are a lot of shitty guitar tones.... that doesn't invalidate the use of the technique. it simply means that there are some people doing it that perhaps don't know very well what they are doing or why.

sorry, those of us working professionally have to deliver a solid product regardless of how badly it may have been recorded before we get it, or how poor the musicians are when they show up. Oz mentioned sending poor musicians home... but when you're working for a label and you have a deadline and the bad player is a key member of the band, you don't really get that luxury.

i'm tired of all the "bedroom quarterbacks" pissing on everything. it's quite easy to sit at home and work with local bands and have all sorts of lofty opinions about how things "should" go... often though you just have to deal with the reality in front of you... and you have a complany that's paid/paying your fee.

and it's not like we are discussing very many bad sounding records here.... even the ones some of you are complaining about, like SAS, sound effin' great.... and you know it.

simmer down and quit crying about the tools we have at our disposal. take a stance and decide not to use them if you want, or just use them properly and get over yourselves.


Im not arguing about the fact that samplereplacement might make it sound better, im arguing about the point that its one of those things that is "de-evolutioning" the modern musician.
You dont have to hit the kicks, snare or toms consistently, because you can just samplereplace it.
Not that its a good example of the perfect drumsound, but listen to Racer X - Scarified, and the dynamics that you have in the kick.
If that kick would have been samplereplaced, you wouldnt get that driving feel out of it.

And you are absolutely right that no drummer is as perfect as a triggered sample, and thats my exact fuckin' point.
Why is the modern sound based on a perfection that cant be reached in real life?

And i agree, you guys might be annoyed that us "bedroom-guys" are evaluating whats right and not right to do.
But we are large consumers of music, and we share a great deal of knowledge between us on this forum too, so i think its safe to say that our opinion matters just as much as yours.

And i do understand that you sometimes HAVE to do these things because of labels & deadlines pushing you.
But dont you agree that it would sound better if you just got more time and could get it done properly?
(Im not asking whether thats the reality or not.)
 
No it doesn't...?

it's a digital device...dry guitarone comes in, processor calculates, emulated tone comes out.
that processing takes time (be it 2ms only)=latency




BUT

usually the latency in the rehearsalspace is bigger...depending on how far you stand from the speakercab (2ms=0.7m)



makes it a little harder these days to get a product on par with the greats from 15-20 years ago (i.e. the Black album et al).


that one had samples on the drums...
even "back in black" had...

ha, just search the web for bob clearmountain ;)
 
well, the POD has latency, the 5150 doesn't
The 5150 does too. First of all any of the EQ filters, or really anywhere in the amp with a capacitor or inductor, have group delay. The speakers themselves, because they have mass, have delay. Sound has a speed, so it takes a while for the sound to get to the microphone.

The latency of the 5150 and the pod is probably comparable.