The Randy Staub love thread

[crillemannen]

I tried that extreme settings on Waves SSL on one of my mixes, and i must say that it worked pretty well, if you are after that flat stereo image Staub nowdays (not bashing, just saying ) create when everything is sooo compressed. I tried it with Fastest attack and Auto Release and about 6-8db of gain reduction, But i probably would leave that extreme settings for mastering

 

[Ermz]

Thanks for doing that C F H. Interesting to hear on the last two clips the fullness that doing the delay adds. Since we can't hear what the delayed signal actually sounds like on that x2 mode, I don't suppose there is a way you can post it or describe its general tonality to the original for us? It seems to add a fair bit of meat to the tone, and definitely instantly becomes more 'Randy-like'. I'll have to find a way to emulate it with EchoBoy.

The trick only involves putting the delay on one side of the stereo pair? Doesn't that create a mis-matched stereo image? Ahhh... that's the secret to the width, isn't it?

If the mix knob is set to 100%, does that imply that one of the guitars of the pair is fatter than the other, and also delayed by ~12ms? Interesting stuff.

 

[tdr]

Thanks a lot for posting those clips, C_F_H_13!

If I understand this correctly, the main thing about the PCM 42 is not the delay, but the special way the unit reacts when the input limiter is overloaded in X2 mode. It seems to create a nice in your face and wide sound which blends nicely with the normal guitars.

 

[slashvanyoung]

Yeah, it's that double staged input limiter which gives you that in-your-face-bite when you it hard on the front end.

People tried to replicate that effect with other units from the PCM range but subsequently failed because they had only one limiting stage.

 

[Ermz]

Just have to ask this question again:

Does the PCM trick involve only putting the PCM on ONE side of the rhythm guitars? If so, what does the 100% mix setting achieve? Doesn't that inherently just create a ~12ms delayed signal of the guitar on that side, with a much rougher sound than the one on the opposite side?

 

[C_F_H_13]

Just have to ask this question again:

Does the PCM trick involve only putting the PCM on ONE side of the rhythm guitars? If so, what does the 100% mix setting achieve? Doesn't that inherently just create a ~12ms delayed signal of the guitar on that side, with a much rougher sound than the one on the opposite side?

yeah you insert it on one side of a pair, and set the mix to 100% (which u are basically doing cause the mix knob on a PCM is a little fucked), so you're guitar is just delayed entirely. There's no separate delayed signal, just one of your guitars is now a bit behind where it was.

 

[Ermz]

Ahh, so the change in tone as well as time alignment between both sides is what creates the illusion of width, and is probably why Randy's guitars seem to disappear almost entirely in mono.

Cool stuff, thanks a lot for that.

That subtle slapback delay I've heard on some of his rhythms must be something else entirely then.

 

[slashvanyoung]

The thing with the PCM trick and Randy just is: unlike Andy Wallace, it's never been confirmed that he does it AFAIK. But it seems likely, to say the least.

 

[HDWR]

Oh! Thanks for the explanation. I thought it was another delayed pair of guitars per channel. Glad you posted that tidbit. Maybe I can get it to sound a little better now!

 

[C_F_H_13]

The thing with the PCM trick and Randy just is: unlike Andy Wallace, it's never been confirmed that he does it AFAIK. But it seems likely, to say the least.

He does do it for sure.

 

[Ermz]

Listening to his stuff, he would definitely have to, otherwise there would be some phase trickery adding that width.

I just tried this trick on a mix using Echoboy, and I think it definitely did make things a little wider and fatter: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/demons-inprogress-32.mp3

I don't commonly have different guitar sounds on each side, much less delay one but I guess you can't argue with results. I wonder if this can work on metal too.

 

[Soundlurker]

^ Sounds awesome. Any chance to hear a sample without the delay trick?

 

[Phase]

He is one of the best if not the best---but remember....he also has a lot of prime tracks sent to him.

Anyone who can force someone who hates Nickelback to listen to them has to be a genius

 

[Phase]

About the huge Lowend boosts

First, the sound of the original tracks matter--AND analog EQ's can be boosted 12db where 3db would do the same on some digital eq's.

2nd, many guys will highpass at 100 and boost a bell at the same place--so there may have been a cut you didnt know about. I dont know...Im just asking if thats possible in this case.

and last, if indeed lowend boosts were actually woofing(Im not talking db's here..I dont care about db's...Im talking actual sound)--then he must be using a sidechain to capture and compress all that lowend separately B4 it goes into the 4k mixbus because otherwise it would be a pumping mess.

So my guess is he is treating his lowend separately and overloading a sidechain, maybe even in parallel too, and then hitting the result to the SSL bus comp. Think of Andy's C4 musing down the woof of the guitars separately. Its really not that novel if thats the case.

Personally, I really dont think he is using any magic techniques. His ear is just so good at spectrum separation, hearing masking, and achieving hi-fidelity broadband sounds, left to right, and front to back, that his turns of the dials are just infinitely more intuitive and productive then ours.

PS...one more thing about the slight delay from the PCM

Someone said its not phase trickery--suggesting those other units suck. Well, those units were created to avoid the phase cancellation caused by delaying one side--so you have it backwards. To be honest I think its all a ruse to throw people off the real technique being used which is Mid-side processing and multed doubles panned to the opposite side to thicken things up. Its really not even that wide --its that its so freakin bright that the sides pop-- because thats where the highs reside when hard panned(bass being further in). That gritty bubbling distortion that you hear more in Wallace mixes can be done with a hundred different units--ts just distortion on top of guitar amp distortion. I think if you analyzed the mixers in question you would be hard pressed to detect, in miliseconds, which side is delayed. My guess is you would find one ahead here and there and then the other ahead.

anyway, he rocks

 

[Mikaël-ange]

Great post and great thread, thanks a lot for this...

 

[Ermz]

Let's keep this going if possible.

C F H, I don't suppose your notes have any more information? Anything at all about how he treats drums? Is pitchshifting a big part of those toms? Parallel compression?

Bass guitar processing? How does it retain so much low-end and not totally destroy the headroom of the master?

The techniques shared so far have been great, and I'm re-reading the thread to make sure it's all soaking in. Always feels so good to learn something new and useful.

 

[Dollarosa]

high pass the bass to 250hz, use another eq to boost around 135hz (bell) into a comp (fast attack, slow release, high ratio), the use a send to a wide chorus efffect, also have a small boost at around 900hz. This gives a big low end to the bass

 

[HeadCrusher]

Is pitchshifting a big part of those toms?

Watt?

 

[Ermz]

Also, any pointers on what he uses to saturate his rhythm guitars? The AIC album sounds like some mega tape saturation (real tape, not simulations) on the rhythms. The top-end is just way too smooth for straight digital.

 

[smy1]

Headcrusher: this is probably something that electronic musicians do more often, but it's a very good idea to pitch shift drums down because often you get a much fatter, lower, more resonant tone. I regularly pitch-shift my (electronic) kick drums and snares to fit the key of the song and very often the 2-3 semitones lower samples sound a lot fatter.

I actually never tried this with real drum sounds, but I can imagine that especially on toms it would work well.