The Ultimate Modelling Challenge

[Lasse Lammert]

I think we all agree that modellers can get fairly close to the real deal (tone-/EQ-wise), some say they're still lacking depth and 3d (well, that's at least what I think).
I know if anyone can tweak a modeller to convince us of the awesomeness of modellers he'll be found on this forum.

HERE IS YOUR CHALLENGE
In This Zip Folder you'll find 2 DI tracks (Jackson San Dimas Dinky with EMG81) as well as 6 reamped tracks.
Those tracks were recorded Through a Mesa OS mic'd with a single sm57 and ZERO post-processing.

your task is to pick 3 of these 6 amps and model the tone as closely as possible using your modeller (vst, axeFX, POD, etc).

The Rules:
-you must NOT use any other tools than the modelled subsitute of what was used in the real chain, meaning: modelled Tubescreamer, modelled amp, modelled box/speaker, modelled Mic.

the modelled amp does NOT have to be the same as the real one (if you think you can model the VHT for example with the JCM2000 model of your POD, feel free to use it).

NO POST PROCESSING! NOT EVEN HP LP!

remember, the task is not to get a subjectively "better" tone, but to get as close as possible to the originals....once we've got the well modelled equivalents we'll have a little comparison with a poll.
have fun

amps used:
- VHT Pittbull Ultralead
- Mesa 2ch Rectifier RevF
- Peavey 5150/6505
- EVH 5150 III
- Krank Krankenstein+
- Bogner Überschall Rev2

DI-chain: Jackson Dan Dimas (oldschool beauty ) with EMG81 (one of the very early ones) into Little Labs Redeye into API

 

[dcb]

lasse ;-) really cool, ill definately try that out!!

question : if i included eq settings in my impulse response : would that be considered "cheating" ? as an impulse acts partly as an eq...

also i want jocke from clawfinger to join this please !!

 

[LeSedna]

Will sure be interesting.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

well, if impulses weren't allowed the modellers wouldn't have the slightest chance.

 

[dcb]

well there is a way to eq an impulse - then reconvolute. thats what i was talking about. is that allowed ?
without post eq i see no chance in getting into the same ballpark...

also : please could you give details about the speakers used and the mic position (off / on axis, cone etc.)
thanks buddy!

 

[Lasse Lammert]

v30, on axis, close to the grille.
I think that EQ should be fine....no matching EQ though I'd say and no EQ on the finished file

 

[Line666]

Is the poll gonna be blind?

 

[LeSedna]

Surgical EQ should not be allowed though.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Is the poll gonna be blind?

would make sense I think.

 

[dcb]

thinking about this : without matching eq i also dont think its possible to get exactly the tone...

match eq gets you close to the cabinets tone.

i think that could be considered modelling because its trying to imitate an original ?

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Surgical EQ should not be allowed though.

definitely not!
also no matching EQs etc...really just only the "before the fact" impulse.
(amp tracks aren't EQ'd either).

well, the modellers are supposed to sound like the amps...that's the challenge.
if the modellers are sounding anything CLOSE to the real deal it should be possible to get a similar tone without matching EQ...that's the purpose of modelling amps.
matching EQ is just bending and warping the modelled sound to sound like the real deal...the modellers are supposed to sound like the real deal in the first place though.

the task is to get a good tone WITHOUT EQ...just like the amps provide.
of course I could notch out some fizz etc in the amp tracks also, but that would alter the tone...the comparison should be between amp and modeller and not between raw amp and match-EQ'd to fuck modeller with tons of EQ to cover all the flaws.....

there are no flaws covered in the raw tracks...if modellers do what they claim to do they should be able to do the same

 

[Line666]

would make sense I think.

Yeah, it's a good idea to avoid any "placebo" effect against the digital stuff.

Although I reckon digital wont be able to get close without surgical eq, too many wierd mids.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Although I reckon digital wont be able to get close without surgical eq, too many wierd mids.

yeah, don't think so either, but that's exactly what I wanna find out...how similar are the modellers really to the real deal.

 

[ronnan]

Cool idea...will give it a shoot if i get the time..cheers lasse..

 

[DanLights]

This is an excellent idea Lasse, will be looking after this

 

[ahjteam]

I got the TSS > SoloC > Impulse _really_ close to Pitbull, but because of the impulse I was using (Recabinet), I couldn't match the low end properly so I gave up.

 

[Fifth_Horseman]

I think to get close to the tone it would help if you could make an impulse of your cab+mic combo as you used it for the reamps.
Otherwise as Danny said it would be hard to get in the same ballpark, except if there's an impulse in someones collection that happens to be spot on.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

I think to get close to the tone it would help if you could make an impulse of your cab+mic combo as you used it for the reamps.
Otherwise as Danny said it would be hard to get in the same ballpark, except if there's an impulse in someones collection that happens to be spot on.

I don't think so....
I could get a similar sound with any v30 cab...definitely with any mesa cab.
if it's not possible to get something similar that just means ampsims are not anywhere near a real amp yet

 

[Ermz]

I remember a while back I reamped some DIs I had here with my 6505 into impulses, and Bernhard tried it with the Revalver 6505 model into the same impulse. He got it amazingly close (mind you he did use curve EQ< but the changes across the spectrum were in the realms of like 1dB). It was to the point where most people could barely tell, and those who could picked it mostly from the floor noise that the real amp had more of.

Modelers can get amazingly close. I think what mostly lets it all down is the impulses themselves. Their static, snapshot nature, along with most hosts taking shortcuts on how they use them (to save CPU power) leads to something not quite as large as the real thing.

On the record I just finished mixing the band gave me a solo DI in the last second, and I had to use X30 and Ryan's Pres 8 impulse. Funny thing was that it was easier to seat in the mix than my actual 6505 into Oversize reamped leads. I was really impressed.

I'm getting more and more of a respect for this approach as I go on. I think it's mostly that i recognize its limitations, and in the back of my mind always try to think of ways to work around them. I'm still convinced that impulses are actually the weak link in the chain, but the repeatability they give is stellar. I mean, there are only so many mic positions that any given cab or speaker sounds full/even/large on. Ryan really nailed that, so it's just a great way to get a nice tone on the fly.

Once convolution technology takes a few steps forward, and Nebula stops blowing donkey balls for cabs, we may actually see something that will topple real cabs for most productions.

So with this test, the only way I feel it would be fair is if all these clips ran into the exact same real cab, or the exact same impulse. It isn't the amp sims' fault that they are being run into impulses, and in this case it may work against them. Ryan once reamped Wagner Sharp and his 6505 through his cab for me in a blind shoot out and I actually preferred Wagner! Give the sims a chance and they might just impress you

 

[Lasse Lammert]

well, the impulse/cabsim is part of the whole modelling deal I wanna compare.