The Ultimate Modelling Challenge

[Ermz]

I think this competition is setting them up to fail. Everything is rigged in the real amps' favor.

Essentially the tone is being set by the real amps, and the modelers are expected to match up, not even play to their own strengths, but just try to match the real amp, which we know is almost impossible to do from real amp to real amp anyway. I don't think anyone would expect modelers to come out on top in this situation, it's literally impossible.

But anyway, should be interesting to see what comes of it. I won't derail the thread any more.

 

[dcb]

So with this test, the only way I feel it would be fair is if all these clips ran into the exact same real cab, or the exact same impulse. It isn't the amp sims' fault that they are being run into impulses, and in this case it may work against them. Ryan once reamped Wagner Sharp and his 6505 through his cab for me in a blind shoot out and I actually preferred Wagner! Give the sims a chance and they might just impress you

i guess without impulses from the exact same session this test will only lead to the impression modelling is shit, because it cant reproduce a certain tone 100 %. this will never work and honestly i dont care if the axe or anyhting sounds "like" a certain real amp. to my ears great modelled tones can sometimes fit better (like ermz said) in a mix context (not only with meshuggah ;-). and sometimes jsut sound shit. but there is shitloads of miced ampsounds out there that sound shit, too. and agaiiin, of course all soo subjective.

maybe we should try it the other way round : looking for the best modelled tone we can find (jockes tones for example) an try to reproduce that with the real amp haha.
then we start a poll...

lets have cliff from axe fx join this !

 

[LeSedna]

maybe we should try it the other way round : looking for the best modelled tone we can find (jockes tones for example) an try to reproduce that with the real amp haha.
then we start a poll...

lets have cliff from axe fx join this !

You just said what was in my head

I think Ermz nailed it exactly, philosophically, the comparison is not what it's about.

Still, this can show some really interesting results.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

I think this competition is setting them up to fail. Everything is rigged in the real amps' favor.

Essentially the tone is being set by the real amps, and the modelers are expected to match up, not even play to their own strengths, but just try to match the real amp, which we know is almost impossible to do from real amp to real amp anyway. I don't think anyone would expect modelers to come out on top in this situation, it's literally impossible.

But anyway, should be interesting to see what comes of it. I won't derail the thread any more.

well, not expecting 100% the same tone, jst as similar as possible to make comparisons easier.

this test was meant to compare modelled tones with real tones..

there are sims of Mesa cabs, sims of Tubescreamers, Sims of sm57, Sims of most of the amps...

so IF al these sims/modellers are anything like the real deal (or at lerast similar), and that's what they claim to be, it should be possible to get similar tones.
That's what they were made/programmed for!

if a sim of a mesa cab can't sound lie a real mesa cab and the sim of a recto can't sound like a real recto etc they're shit simulations...
if the sims are good it should be possible to get similar tones...don't really see the difficulty here tbh.

you think ampsims/speakersims can reproduce the real deal fairly similar? well, bring it on, all the used gear is available as sim/modeller.

you're saying it's not possible?
well in that case we have to admit that all the sims cannot get tones similar to the real thing.

 

[onqel]

Can anyone match these tones with a real amp and cab then?
At least you should provide impulses of the cab/setup you used for recording those amps

 

[::XeS::]

It's curious....there are hundreds of threads where people claims that modellers are so close to the real deal, that they are awesome, that in 2 years we will not need real amps, etc etc....
And now that you can prove all these things........one needs curve eq, one needs surgical eq, one needs something else

I'm jocking of course

 

[onqel]

hahaha, re-open this thread in two years then

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Can anyone match these tones with a real amp and cab then?

yes, of course

At least you should provide impulses of the cab/setup you used for recording those amps

that would defeat the purpose!
look guys, it's really simple:

-ampsims are supposed to sound like the real deal
-speakersims are supposed to sound like the real deal
-tubescreamersims are supposed to sound like the real deal
-mic-sims are supposed to sound like the real deal.

so if all these simulations and modellers do what they're promising (modelling the real deal) is should be possible to get a similar tone.
if a simulation of something it's supposed to simulate can't get a similar tone...it's a shit simulation. (anyone's head spinning? )

youve got all these tools that are meant to sound like the real thing and now you're telling me it can't sound like the real thing at all?
well, in that case a poll wouldn't even be necessary, would it?

It's curious....there are hundreds of threads where people claims that modellers are so close to the real deal, that they are awesome, that in 2 years we will not need real amps, etc etc....
And now that you can prove all these things........one needs curve eq, one needs surgical eq, one needs something else

I'm jocking of course

exactly!

 

[Jaymz]

Interested in the results with this....although personally im a firm believer in real amps coming out on top.

 

[Line666]

How are we meant to deal with things like your room sound though, or the inherent character of your miced speaker, I mean obviously small things like that are going to effect your final sound - sometimes in quite a drastic way, and these are small things that we can't implement due to only you being able to use.

And how would an impulse of your setup defeat the purpose of the exercise, it would still be an impulse, it would still be an emulation of the real thing?

 

[Jaymz]

Thats half the battle though, if you basically used the same cab then it does defeat the purpose since no other speakers in another cab will sound the same as the ones used for the judge tones. Hes saying if the recto impulses around are said to be that accurate you should be able to get in the ballpark fairly easily.

At the end of the day I assume this was made due to the overwhelming claims that people using amp sims can match up real rigs without question!

Lets find out! \m/

 

[dcb]

And how would an impulse of your setup defeat the purpose of the exercise, it would still be an impulse, it would still be an emulation of the real thing?

+ 1

i dont think fractal audio went out and said : lets cover every tone there could possibly be on this planet. they went out to model what we perceive as a (great) guitar sound / tone. it gets you amazingly close with the same impulses.

jocke ... where are you when one needs you ;-)
please post your tone from kill yourself with style and then your axe tone with the exact same impulse...

 

[dcb]

Thats half the battle though, if you basically used the same cab then it does defeat the purpose since no other speakers in another cab will sound the same as the ones used for the judge tones. Hes saying if the recto impulses around are said to be that accurate you should be able to get in the ballpark fairly easily.

well getting into the same ballpark is something else than copying a tone exactly.

 

[Line666]

Yeah but only in the ballpark area, and Lasse wants the tones to be as close to the originals as possible (ie as identical), if you can only shoot around ballpark accurate, then even a marginal difference is going to be obvious when a comparison is made, and the test is essentially void.

 

[Jaymz]

I couldn't get the exact same tone as him using the same head, thats out of the question. But you still need to create something comparable between real vs sim.

 

[Line666]

A comparable accuracy isn't a scientific test though, its again entirely subjective and brings the discussion nowhere other than where it stands already.

 

[Jaymz]

Tbh I think its all being looked into way too much already....pick a tone and match it as much as possible, use all your TS softwares pre' and power amps and step up to the plate.

No less no more.

Ill let Lasse take over on the talking front from now

 

[Line666]

Tbh I think its all being looked into way too much already....pick a tone and match it as much as possible, use all your TS softwares pre' and power amps and step up to the plate.

No less no more.

Well, I don't think so.

I still think that a real amp will better the emulation, but until you eliminate all the real world elements down it's not going to prove anything to Lasse because he will still be able to recognise the sound of his speaker or room and whilst he can still do that it's not really a blind test to him, or going to really prove anything, beyond the fact maybe that he can recognise his own tone.

For a truely scientific comparison between amps, impulses and the real thing, I think you'd have to have:

1. Amp + Cab
2. Amp + Impulse of the same cab with the same mic, positioning and room.
3. Modeling Amp + Impulse as above.

With the person who did the recording/impulse making staying out of the judgement and the test being blind.

We already know that modelling can be close, but to see how close you really have to strip all the little uncertainties out the equation.

 

[The-Zeronaut]

like someone else said
not all v30 sound the same
not even the sm57
also you have a great room
so getting the exact tone would be really really hard

with that said...

here´s my try to the 5150:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/453972/match 5150-5153.mp3

chain used:
Mokafix cream tube
Amplitube 3 peavey 5150
Lecab with Redwire mesa boogie oversized v30 impulses (sm57- cap 1 inch)
podfarm API preamp sim (i saw an API on your chain)


here´s my try to the Recto:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/453972/match recto1.mp3

chain used:
Mokafix cream tube
Revolutionz 1.1
Lecab with Spreshigh
podfarm API preamp sim

 

[lolzgreg]

I AM EXCITED FOR THIS :Smokin:

I'm going to do it tonight!