The Ultimate Modelling Challenge

[JayB]

I just tried to do this with my PODxt.... Now I remember why I don't use it anymore. The PODs cab/mic simulation sucks donkey balls.

totally , pod pretty much sucks period ... i use it for bass , that's all ... with impulses it can be decent

 

[NNotN-ENN]

Here's a way that I think about things: say if the modeled equivalent of each part of the chain (and I'll go with Lasse's earlier example of tubescreamer, amp sim, speaker sim, mic sim) is 99% close to the real deal (just to put a number on it being almost exactly right), then we are multiplying the 99% accuracy each time we use a modeled part of the chain (i.e. 99%*99%*99%*99%). Now what we end up with here is not a 99% of the real tone, but more like 96% (99*99*99*99=96059601 instead of 100000000)... which I think would go along way of the way to explain people's hangups on "yeah it sounds pretty good, but not quite exactly".

Anyway, I think this is an interesting idea, but at the end of the day I'd more inclined to go with the earlier point of "why are we getting so hung up on trying to copy real amps and not playing to the strengths of these modelers?"

 

[Keregioz]

The camps of who uses amp sims and who uses real amps

Oh, ok. Still, the people who use amp sims don't do it because they prefer them but because they can't afford or don't have the space for a real amp (like me) or they look for a specific sound which amp sims do better, like djent for example.

Depends on the real amp , the studio my band recorded at had some shitty sounding amps so I used digital amps on it and it is already sounding a thousand times better . I think ampsims can be awesome when done correctly , real amps are awesome too , everything has its place

Yes, I know what you mean, depends on the tone you want to achieve and the gear you have. What I meant was in situations when you want a specific amp tone like a recto or a 5150 no person in his right mind will prefer an amp sim over them.

 

[DeclanWhite]

Which camps are you referring to? Are there people who honestly believe that amp sims are better than real amps?

joey sturgis

 

[Harry Hughes]

Oh, ok. Still, the people who use amp sims don't do it because they prefer them but because they can't afford or don't have the space for a real amp (like me) or they look for a specific sound which amp sims do better, like djent for example.



Yes, I know what you mean, depends on the tone you want to achieve and the gear you have. What I meant was in situations when you want a specific amp tone like a recto or a 5150 no person in his right mind will prefer an amp sim over them.

Interesting, because I think the best "djent" sound ever was done on real amps, Chaosphere.

 

[AntonioPetrole]

Seems like no one is going for this, im gonna give it a shot lasse! I will be back with results!

 

[TheDude]

NO POST PROCESSING! NOT EVEN HP LP!

remember, the task is not to get a subjectively "better" tone, but to get as close as possible to the originals....once we've got the well modelled equivalents we'll have a little comparison with a poll.
have fun

amps used:
- VHT Pittbull Ultralead
- Mesa 2ch Rectifier RevF
- Peavey 5150/6505
- EVH 5150 III
- Krank Krankenstein+
- Bogner Überschall Rev2

DI-chain: Jackson Dan Dimas (oldschool beauty ) with EMG81 (one of the very early ones) into Little Labs Redeye into API

AWESOME! This'll be fun! Downloaded!

Thanks Lasse!

 

[TheDude]

And now I've read through all pages. Wow!

Either: Give it a shot. Stop whining.
Or: Don't give it a shot. Stop whining.

 

[LePou]

To me, the debate between sim and real gear is an endless one. So, even if I believe it's almost impossible to replicate the exact same tone (even with a real tube screamer, a real amp, a real cab and a real mic) I gave it a shot just for the fun of it.

RectoChallenge

 

[The-Zeronaut]

To me, the debate between sim and real gear is an endless one. So, even if I believe it's almost impossible to replicate the exact same tone (even with a real tube screamer, a real amp, a real cab and a real mic) I gave it a shot just for the fun of it.

RectoChallenge

is that the Lecto?

 

[narcossintese]

To me, the debate between sim and real gear is an endless one. So, even if I believe it's almost impossible to replicate the exact same tone (even with a real tube screamer, a real amp, a real cab and a real mic) I gave it a shot just for the fun of it.

RectoChallenge

Wow, is this your unreleased Recto plugin? Sounds great!

 

[LePou]

Yes it is. Impulse is one of Alu's (Wild Hades) Mesa OS.

 

[AntonioPetrole]

Yes it is. Impulse is one of Alu's (Wild Hades) Mesa OS.

sorry for the off topic, but any idea when we are gonna have our hands on it? also do you accept paypal for donations?

 

[Force666]

I thought this thread was gonna be about everyone trying to take pictures of themselves looking sexy.

 

[aortizjr]

Well I took the challenge. I have to say... this sucked. It is pretty much the same problem I continually have with modelers. There is just continuously something not right. But I think the definite weakness is with the speaker modeling.

I use a GSP1101 live, and I love it! Best modeler I have tried (everything under $500, so no Eleven or Axe-FX). Anyway in my studio, I have an RP500 that I use for demoing. For recording, it is all good until it is time to get serious.

Same with VST's and the like, it is just a constant fight. Versus a miced cab with a real amp, some highpass, maybe a couple other EQ tweaks.. done! I should try micing up the 1101 and see how it does.. hmm...

I played with my RP500 and impulses for about 2 hours and gave up. I figured to give a taste of something that doesn't get a lot of love around here compared to the VST's.

RP500 5150 model, boosted with Screamer model, into Alu's Mesa Oversized Sperimental Impulse
http://www.ortizaudio.net/clips/modelingchallenge/RP500-5150.mp3

RP500 Recto model, boosted with Screamer model, into Alu's Mesa Oversized Sperimental Impulse
http://www.ortizaudio.net/clips/modelingchallenge/RP500-Recto1.mp3

Soo.... in general it is sort of like the flavor is there or more like the memory. Make's you go, "yeah we are on track here..." then you A/B and go "whoa damn" The impulses make a HUGE difference. Each of these amps have a distinctive mid-range that is similar (due to the cab and mic) but different too because of their voicings.

I felt that RP500 had the vibe going. But then on the speaker side of the house, it was a total mess. I tried a TON of Mesa impulses and positions. These have the sizzle of mic'd cabs, but too much. Other's that didn't were wayy to dark or muddy. Mixing added additional issues that took the tone in totally different directions.

Some were good, I would say even arguably better than the mic'd clips. But totally different. Still had some weirdness though that I can't put my finger on.

So yeah, I tried and failed.

I use modeling all the time for demoing and practicing. In fact I never fire up my tube amps for practicing. At low volumes or in headphones, the modelers (VSTs, RP500, GSP1101) to me sound better than a hardware cab modeler or an amp turned way down. Or I will use one on a mix if the mic'd tone is atrocious and there is no time. But I try to make time for re-amping, even if it is non-paid time.

Live, it is a matter of convenience. And the tone I get from the 1101 is not a tube-amp vs. digital. It is just a voicing thing like a 5150 vs. Mesa. Then considering it is a 12lb rack (I use a BX500 power section, 5lb. Class D amp) and with MIDI all my FX are ready, it is no brainer.

SO yeah... modelers=convenience, tubes=destruction!!!

 

[no.mop]

Lasse, if you post the same clip 3 times: one DI, one miced and one with only the head, the whole thing will be much easier. Then we can try to simulate it by steps, first nailing the head, then the cab/mic.

I mean, load an impulse on the "head only" signal, load the same impulse on an ampsim and try to match them. After nailing the head tone we pass to the next step, that is messing with the impulses on the amp sim trying to match the miced clip.

Without these steps it will be like trying to match the head, the cab and the mic all at the same time.

+1 to this.

Lasse, I understand what you're trying to get at, but this all is just going to prove that ampsims inherently aren't going to sound as good as a well EQ'ed, well mic'ed, etc. real amp at this point in time. It's not going to show exactly what the shortcomings of the ampsims are, just that one or more aspects are lacking in quality next to the real gear. You wouldn't even be able to tell which of the parts of the whole is of lower quality. It's pointless and is just a demonstration of dominance.

In that respect, I think that it would actually be worthwhile to evaluate each individual aspect of what goes into the ampsim's final tone (eg. preamp, cab impulses, etc.), compared to a real amp's preamp impulses or mic'ed tones or whatever else in order to figure out which aspect is holding the product back from its potential.

 

[professorlamp]

I'll give it a shot sometime next week

 

[Lasse Lammert]

cool, thanks for the files so far...
really looking forward to Jocke's clips, since he's the master of the axeFX.

 

[visceral]

I agree with the idea of uploading the DI of the amp without the cab. I think the impulse has at least as much impact on the sound as the amp sim.

 

[TheDude]

cool, thanks for the files so far...
really looking forward to Jocke's clips, since he's the master of the axeFX.

Thanks man! And look: no whining!