To the Musicians: A question about rhythm and time

[Xtokalon]

I need some advice on playing music (and listening to music).

How is it that some of you listen to music (and play it) knowing and able to hear the time signature of music? What does it mean to play by a "5/4" rhythm, for example? And how can you tell?

It's easy to "hear" a waltz 3/3, but I don't know exactly what it means to hear and play by the more complicated rhythms and time-signatures and to "see" them shift dynamically in a song...


Any one willing to give a musical lesson?

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

just tap along... and if it fucks you up, then it is in a strange time signature.

Then try and work it out by when the accents of the bar fall

ONE two three FOUR five, ONE two THREE four five... etc.

 

[Heliologue]

firstly, waltzes aren't in 3/3: as far as i know, no such time signatures exists.

they're in 3/4. in any time signature, the top number signafies how many beats are in a measure. with a waltz, it's

1 2 3 1 2 3 ......

and so on, with the first beat receiving the emphasis.


the bottom number signifies which note is receiving of 1 beat. this one is a little more complicated.

know that a quarter note is one-fourth of a measure., so in 4/4 time, there are four of them. four quarters is a whole.

so in 3/4, there are three beats, total, and the quarter notes are the basic unit.


an easier way to say it would be

3/1 beats times 1/4 (quarter note) as the basic unit
equals 3/4

or three 1/4 notes
or three quarter notes.

same thing works with alla breve (cut time

2/2.... there are two beat per measure. but it's the half note (1/2) that gets 1 beat. so essentially everything is cut in half.

2/1 beats x 1/2 unit = 2/2 time

then there are the x/8 time signatures

the most common is 6/8, which is to say there are six eighth (1/8) notes. this is generally divided in two major counts (kind of like two measures of 3/4, but 6/8 is generally gives a bouncy feel)

the more complicated ones to play are those with an odd number of beats.

7/8 time is seven (7) eigth (1/8) notes. also 9/8 time. these are generally divided into groups of 2 and 3 eighth notes.

7/8= 12-123-12 or 12-12-123 or 123-12-12

9/8= 12-12-123-12 and so on



there are scads of others, like 12/8 time, which is like the bouncy version of 4/4 (1.2.3-4.5.6-7.8.9-10.11.12)
in change of seasons, dream theater uses a measure of 17/16 time (or is it 16/17? i forget)


some time signatures are ambiguous: 3/4 can sound the same as 6/8: it's all a matter of how it's played: for a good 6/8 example, listen to "Resin" by In Flames.

for a song with 5/8, 7/8, 3/8, 6/8, and 3/4, listen to "Schism" by Tool

 

[Xtokalon]

Wow! Very illuminating post, Saturn IX, but also very intimidating!

How do you go about playing then? Do you have an "internal clock" or something (ie talent?), or is it just practice?

Also, is it all dependent on the "beat" and accent?

Thanks anyway

 

[Misanthrope]

O come on its no talent. If you can know a 3/4 when you hear a waltz you can compose all those crazy signatures. Now if you were into jazz and you had to improvise over 5/4 ( paul desmond stuff comes to mind ) then you have to be either incredible skilled ( with practice ) or incredible talented ( no practice, still good ).

 

[Heliologue]

it takes a while. basically, you count in your head while you're doing it.

as to emphasising beats:

in 4/4 time, the first beat generally gets the emphasis, 3 the second-most, and 2&4 are unimportant. 3/4 is beat 1.

generally, the first note of any measure or group is going to get the emphasis. in 7/8 time, 12-12- 123.

accents are a different thing. base meaning is to play the beginning of the note with a kick. staccato is to play it short. marcato is a combination of the two.

the main thing to watch out for is syncopation, which is the placing of emphasis on odd beats. used a lot in jazz and in technical metal.

 

[Sadistik]

During the pre-solo breakdown in Hail Mary, Testament flips to 9/16 time, which sounds cool but always fucks me up...They then drop back into 4/4 for the solo....

 

[D Mullholand]

Originally posted by Xtokalon
How do you go about playing then? Do you have an "internal clock" or something (ie talent?), or is it just practice?

Also, is it all dependent on the "beat" and accent?

Try this: I'm sure you can tap a 4/4 (or even a 3/4) beat with your foot while doing some other activity, like having a conversation or something. To "feel" a signature like 5/4 (or 7/4) just tap One, Two Three, Four, Five as often as you can, while counting in your head; then try it without counting, see if you're comfortable; then you can try different accents; and finally try to tap it while you're talking to somebody and see if you don't fuck up the rhythm. If you succeed, the signature won't be "weird" anymore.

There is a trap, of course, where "progressive" metal bands can fall - they fix on a "weird" time signature but forget the melody, concentrating on just repeating the rhythm without variation in accents or articulation - it doesn't come natural to them, and sounds like they are just "playing the weird time signature". Opeth have this problem too sometimes.

D Mullholand

 

[YaYo]

Now if you were into jazz and you had to improvise over 5/4 ( paul desmond stuff comes to mind ) then you have to be either incredible skilled ( with practice ) or incredible talented ( no practice, still good ).

Time signatures arent hard for me.... i can write completely naturally with 5/4 without even realising it, which means i can also improvise over it without even thinking.... it gets difficult when you get onto the odd numbers with 8th beats or 16ths. Im constantly writing 5/8 7/8 and 9/8 bars into my music as bridges but i havent got smooth at writing actual riffs in these timings.... it really just takes practice and concentration, play wiht it long enough and its as natural as 4/4. I still have a long way to go with the harder time sigs with stuff that D Mullholand just mentioned... because i dont have full control over them so i tend to not be able to work with them that much... but sometimes i can get it going.


Tool are an extremely good example, most people dont even know that they are playing in weird timings... which means they know what they are doing, and arent writing it just to show off "hey look at this weird timing, bet you cant follow!".

 

[Mayh]

Originally posted by D Mullholand

Try this: I'm sure you can tap a 4/4 (or even a 3/4) beat with your foot while doing some other activity, like having a conversation or something. To "feel" a signature like 5/4 (or 7/4) just tap One, Two Three, Four, Five as often as you can, while counting in your head; then try it without counting, see if you're comfortable; then you can try different accents; and finally try to tap it while you're talking to somebody and see if you don't fuck up the rhythm. If you succeed, the signature won't be "weird" anymore.

There is a trap, of course, where "progressive" metal bands can fall - they fix on a "weird" time signature but forget the melody, concentrating on just repeating the rhythm without variation in accents or articulation - it doesn't come natural to them, and sounds like they are just "playing the weird time signature". Opeth have this problem too sometimes.

D Mullholand

This is very interesting, could you point out some parts where this wierd time signature thing is going on, I bet the wierd part around 6th minute in Drapery Falls is one of them...

 

[YaYo]

This is very interesting, could you point out some parts where this wierd time signature thing is going on, I bet the wierd part around 6th minute in Drapery Falls is one of them...

Opeth themselves admit they didnt really know what was going on in that little part.. yes that is a very good example of Opeth not having full control over their time signature and as such just repeating the riff 4/8/12/16 times and hoping it sounds good.

 

[Mayh]

Still, I think it´s a pretty cool part, it kind of sticks out, wakes you up. It would be cool hearing about some other parts too.

 

[D Mullholand]

Originally posted by Mayh
This is very interesting, could you point out some parts where this wierd time signature thing is going on, I bet the wierd part around 6th minute in Drapery Falls is one of them...

No, I know this part and I wasn't talking about it... darn, I don't remember offhand, I think it was in Funeral Portrait, towards the end of the song where this quite unnatural descending heavy riff comes up - that sounded rather jarring - plus there are some examples in Still Life, but they're slightly better as I remember. I haven't listened to them for a month or more, so I can't point out the exact song... anyway, Opeth are far from the worst rhythm-mistreaters in metal. I was talking more about stuff like "And Justice For All" etc.

D Mu-llhola-nd