US Education

[ABQShredHead]

I don't know though, Ken. It seems to me that when the feds get involved, it's too much of a one-size fits all deal. Take No Child Left Behind, for instance - an honorable attempt by the feds to do something about illiteracy, but it really went the other way in terms of hurting our brighter kids (or perhaps the kids with highly involved parents?).

Maybe if there was a way to craft accountability for the states and districts we could find something workable.

 

[Beelzebub]

Hah, Mark and I agree on something!

Another thing that pisses me off to no end is when people just assume their kids will learn everything in school and that it's the teacher's job to discipline them and reinforce everything. That's the laziest bullshit I've ever heard. I agree 100% that it all starts at home. I have a mother who taught me how to read when I was 3, put me two years ahead of my class in math, and bought me books on everything that I found interesting. Having kids almost scares me, just because I don't think I could ever be as good to my children as she was to me.

 

[razoredge]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if you divide a schools systems budget by the number of students you come up with a figure that far excedes that of colledge tuition. Its been awhile since I've done it but that was the deal around 1996 when the bastards plugged us for a 28% increase. ( I realize many are not home owners yet paying school tax's) Its only gotten worse since, not only big budget increases but assessment values went through the roof with the wicked false houseing inflation.

Yet schools are still the same OLD bullshit.

[in reference to comments made about putting more money into schools]

 

[rockyracoon]

Regarding literacy:

I don't think it's enough just to strive for a higher literacy rate. Being deemed "literate" by state guidelines basically means you can write out a grocery list. The minimum standards should be raised and the idea of what it means to be considered "literate" should be re-defined. Additionally, I'd like to see more emphasis on developing communication skills. Sadly, there's far too many folks out there drastically lacking in both departments.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I totally agree. "Literacy" needs to be functional, not just aphabetic.

 

[razoredge]

I think the burdon should be put on the teacher, rather than making the kids meet tougher requirements/expectations. The teachers need to learn how to teach in a pro-active fashion so teens can see the point in learning something that is other wise abstract. Everytime they have "bumped" things up they are just putting the stress on the kids. Its the teachers with their $40,000 + per year part time jobs that are failing. Ever notice how attention is always focused in the easiest place rather than root of the problem... its always the bottom line not everything that gets fucked up in route.

 

[Kenneth R.]

well, even supposing they have excellent teachers, if the students don't want to learn, that's their own fault at that point.

 

[razoredge]

yep, but it starts with the teacher, get the kids attention and leave the baffleing bullshit at home, you just graduated from college or have been at this your entire adult life, so you know what you are talking about and this was your study and main focus of interest... not ours... so quit talking as is we have a fucking clue as to what you are talking about, or are not as thrilled and excited about it as you.... show us why we should find this interesting and where it fits into the grand scheme of life. My summer school teachers were awesome, Six weeks to learn everything that had bored me to tears for 180 days. Maybe teachers are better today but they sucked shit at my school in the 70's.

Then as others have mentioned all the mandated things you must learn and study but they are so abstract to real life and then your just loosing students by the handful. There are actually people that dont like to waste their time on trivial bullshit to prove some point that need not be proved.

I also have question about the literacy ratings, we have a huge diverse country, now with the gigantic inner city problems and large areas of poverty you have a large population that is diluting the "average"

So once again we are back to decent jobs that raise self esteem within a household creating a better environment for children to thrive in. Not this current situation where even if it is a working family both parents are gone from the home 10-12 hours a day just to make ends meet.

I am the opposite to this scenero as I had a great upbringing. Even though I did terrible in school due to other reasons I have addresssed at least I did have the desire to learn about things I cared about and not be an ignorant MF my whole life. Since I have stepped down into the poverty working class by choice of employment interests I have met some really friggin ignorant, unknowing people... but at least I can see though the BS and know why these problems exist. Many of the people I do NOT find to be stupid, just a product of their environment.

In some ways I see this as only getting worse as we continue to move the country to this high tech ONLY job market. College degree or live in poverty, that is only going to add to poorer family environments which do nothing to stimulate children.

None of this is carved in stone obviously, I am just generalizing. Sure there are the handful of success stories amounts the thousands.... as well as I have met some really friggin ignorant, pathetic college grads.

 

[rockyracoon]

College degree or live in poverty,

Or both, as is my situation with a degree in Sociology. I switched majors from Business Admin. when I realized 12+ hrs/day in a cubicle wasn't for me. Then I studied abroad in Mexico in a Sociology/Anthropology based program and found something I actually cared about. Unfortunately for me, a degree in Sociology is basically a degree in waiting tables. I've got no one to blame but myself as I knew it would be this way, but of course insisted on a discipline that I actually felt was worthwhile.


All I'm saying is that a college degree doesn't always mean escaping poverty, or at least government defined poverty. Colleges are turning out record numbers of grads who are more and more commonly falling into the category of "underemployed." Me, I rotate between "unemployed" and "underemployed." Currently the former.

 

[Kenneth R.]

College grad. Unemployed. I feel your pain.

 

[rockyracoon]

College grad. Unemployed. I feel your pain.

Yeah, hopefully I can remedy the situation without completely compromising all the self/personal enrichment my free time has awarded me. I'm quite certain my human potential isn't going to be realized via working for 30+ yrs so I'm only reluctantly looking for a new job.

 

[rockyracoon]

College grad. Unemployed. I feel your pain.

Yeah, hopefully I can remedy the situation without completely compromising all the self/personal enrichment my free time has awarded me. I'm quite certain my human potential isn't going to be realized via working for 30+ yrs so I'm only reluctantly looking for a new job.



WHICH...is another issue I have with the current education system. Personally, I have never and will never define myself by my job/profession. I have friends who do this. They are, first and foremost, "Company X Employee." They are, secondly, "John Q. Taxpayer/Mortgage Payer." Finally and thirdly, they are some pale image of an individual human being with individual thoughts, ideas, or any actual time to reflect on anything happening around them.

I understand financial/career success is an admirable and functional goal. But it's scary to watch how everyone still buys into a system that has no desire to see us reach our actual human potential, but rather a desire to see us pay taxes, buy a house, have a kid, get a new car every few years, and juggle $10-12k in credit card debt. My concern is that the educational system has done nothing to dissuade students from this. Very few professors, most of whom are situated in specific disciplines actually encourage education to serve a purpose beyond adding another zero to your paycheck.


Edit: In fact, Kenneth, I think this might be right in line with your thoughts on how education was viewed 200 yrs ago. The whole "self-pursued endeavor" is absolutely something I agree with, and something absolutely lost on this generation.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Hah, Mark and I agree on something!

A sure sign of the apocalypse?

Edit: In fact, Kenneth, I think this might be right in line with your thoughts on how education was viewed 200 yrs ago. The whole "self-pursued endeavor" is absolutely something I agree with, and something absolutely lost on this generation.

Should not one's career path be a self-pursued endeavor? I think what is lost on this generation is that a career path is something you are totally in control of, and it is up to the individual, not the company or employer, to get there.

 

[rockyracoon]

Should not one's career path be a self-pursued endeavor? I think what is lost on this generation is that a career path is something you are totally in control of, and it is up to the individual, not the company or employer, to get there.

Ideally, yes. Though I'm not sure it's entirely that cut and dry. But I suppose that's only relevant IF you're into the concept of a "career path." Personally, I'm not. I get discouraged by the whole idea of "live to work, work to live" idea. My frustration is that this concept is reinforced at almost every level of education, with various exceptions of course, and therein lays a major problem I have with the educational system. Education could serve as a valuable tool to aid people in becoming well-rounded, free-thinking individuals who understand the value of pursuing at least some degree of personal happiness. Sadly, happiness is portrayed as good job security. I just don't agree with that.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Edit: In fact, Kenneth, I think this might be right in line with your thoughts on how education was viewed 200 yrs ago. The whole "self-pursued endeavor" is absolutely something I agree with, and something absolutely lost on this generation.

Word for word. That could have been one of my posts, it was so in-line with my thoughts.

 

[razoredge]

So it seems others are agreeing with my thoughts somewhat on the stimulated economy. I know this isnt the political thread. But everything is based on "selling" or "billing" to the population to keep the population, employed and paying taxes and interest.

I was aware of the college grad work situation to some degree but its not my side of the fence so I didnt go there. I have noticed over the years in my job searches that many of the starting wages that required bachelors degrees were pretty grim. The craziest thing about it is its not like there is not enough money to go around... its just the distribution.

So now with all this negativity what is it this awesome education is supposed to do for us again ?

 

[Kenneth R.]

ideally it's supposed to make the country smarter. thus, smarter people would vote for smarter representitives, and smarter people + smarter representatives would make a smarter economy, not to mention business and research. raise the bar, not "no idiot left behind"

 

[razoredge]

I think you have it wrong, the smart people have the money and they keep smart people representing.... ahem.... us. I believe too much is already spent on research, its alot and its squandered padding pockets. Theres incredible amounts spent to research or prevent the inevitable, great fortunes are made from it, yet it accomplishes little, take this little Mars rover looking for signs of ice or water... worth every penny... NO DOUBT ! Is there a price tag on that fucking thing ? No its just a free toy for mentally masterbating scientists.

 

[ABQShredHead]

To quote President Coolidge, "America's business is business". We operate in a capitalist society. Without business, and subsequent "work", we would be little as a country.

Smarter people habitually look toward the future rather than living in the now. An intersting book to read is The Millionaire Next Door. Very sound concepts are presented in that book. And if you can find one, I recommend attending Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University seminar.

 

[razoredge]

Hey I looked toward the future, did great and it paid off... till it was sold down the river, probably by a handful of those guys that read that book. Im so proud of them.