USA healthcare overhaul

[iHate]

Also, this bill starts taxing everyone starting January 2010. The healthcare coverage would not go into effect until 2013.

Great so I can start payments on my car, and I'll come pick it up in 3 years. Schweet. This way Obama can say "See, here's the deal, re-elect me because my healthcare bill is about to go into action in my next term and you will see how great it works!"

 

[spioraid]

This bill alone was done in a manner to completely escape public gatherings in DC. If you have a gathering or 20 people or more in a protest, you're required to have a gathering permit (WTF?) at least 5 days in advance. The date for passing this bill was schedule only 2-3 days ago.

It would have been impossible to gather any kind of sizable voice in DC this morning to protest this bill. Few people knew, you can't gather together, and it's friggin Christmas Eve.

I don't care of the contents of the bill; that's a sneaky and completely underhanded way to shove an agenda through the system against public opinion.

 

[P-E]

Sounds like the system in Finland. It works imho tbh. My dentist bill would've otherwise been like over 2000€, but I only paid like 115€ to get 7 teeth fixed

Agreed.
its baffling that the alleged "greatest nation" on earth has point-blank refused to look after its own citizens for so long.

as for people getting pissed about how this will increase the national debt, perhaps your anger should be directed towards the reasons the national debt is so high in the first place.

Maybe if you guys (OR GOVERNMENT TO MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY =D) spent a little less money on trying to own the whole damn world, you'd be able to get a good healthcare without having your taxes shooting through the ceiling. Just my humble little thought =)

All QFT, maybe the bill itself needs revision tbh, what TheWinterSnow explained does seem a bit hardcore, but yeh.

Erkan I love you (in the most heterosexual of ways).

 

[James Murphy]

what strikes me in reading this thread... and in paying attention to the debates over healthcare reform in general... is that the only thing worse than liberal pie-in-the-sky optimism is irrational conservative fear-mongering. both get on my tits, but the latter is far more irritating.

 

[ahjteam]

On a serious note though, if anyone had paid any attention to HOW this bill was passed, you might raise your brow and ask, what the fuck are they doing? They had what, 72 hours to read over 1000 pages of the bill before voting? Come on, this is just a bunch of bullshit. And it doesnt even cover everyone, this is not "nationwide" healthcare. This is, if you dont have insurance, you can fuck yourself and pay our fines for not buying insurance.

There is no public option, it's not free care for everyone. This isn't like "yay we are covering our entire nation." It's more like, "hey, we are just going to spend 1 trillion dollars on a bunch of crap." It wouldn't have cost 1 trillion dollars to just cover the 30-somethin million people who are uninsured. And this bill does not even cover all of those 30-something million people.

So don't get all excited about this like its so great and wonderful. It isn't.

Also, this bill starts taxing everyone starting January 2010. The healthcare coverage would not go into effect until 2013.

According to the Helsingin Sanomat, the bill would make the healthcare system cover 96% of the US population, so that is what... 295 million americans. Considering now it covers 27.8% of the population according to wikipedia, I would say that is one helluva big improvement.

And even tho you most likely drew the 1 trillion dollars from hat, what would that 1 trillion dollars (1 000 000 000 000) mean in taxes per person? USA has ~308 million inhabitants, so that means one million (1 000 000) dollars per 308 people. That is 3247 dollars per person in THREE YEARS (2010, 2011 and 2012). And that is $90 per month or $3 per day. Per person. If you count in the year 2013 too, it would be $2.25 per day. And that is on average. The poor pay less, the rich pay more (or atleast, thats how it works here).

If you want to count it yourself:

1 000 000 000 000 dollars / 308 000 000 people / 3 years / 12 months per year / 30 days in a month = 3,006253006253006253006253006253 dollars per day per person

If you smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, you spend more money in it than on the healthcare plan.

 

[Aaron Smith]

This bill is trash, I could go on and on about it, but don't have the time. Check out this article though, it's a very good read:

http://mises.org/daily/3914

 

[Joematthews]

what strikes me in reading this thread... and in paying attention to the debates over healthcare reform in general... is that the only thing worse than liberal pie-in-the-sky optimism is irrational conservative fear-mongering. both get on my tits, but the latter is far more irritating.

Ultimate truth.

Joe

 

[ahjteam]

http://mises.org/daily/3914

Well, computers killed the typewriter industry and industrialization killed a lot of manual labour jobs, and there are several other similiar cases, but so fucking what? Life goes on and the people will find some other jobs and fields of work to do. I just wish the american automobile industry wouldn't have killed the electric car, because the business is good as is, but the electric car industry would've killed it, but again; SO FUCKING WHAT. Change is good sometimes, especially when its better for the people AND the enviroment.

 

[P-E]

Well, computers killed the typewriter industry and industrialization killed a lot of manual labour jobs, and there are several other similiar cases, but so fucking what? Life goes on and the people will find some other jobs and fields of work to do. I just wish the american automobile industry wouldn't have killed the electric car, because the business is good as is, but the electric car industry would've killed it, but again; SO FUCKING WHAT. Change is good sometimes, especially when its better for the people AND the enviroment.

We're on the same page on this, and this is exactly what I was about to write. Cheers.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Well, computers killed the typewriter industry and industrialization killed a lot of manual labour jobs, and there are several other similiar cases, but so fucking what? Life goes on and the people will find some other jobs and fields of work to do. I just wish the american automobile industry wouldn't have killed the electric car, because the business is good as is, but the electric car industry would've killed it, but again; SO FUCKING WHAT. Change is good sometimes, especially when its better for the people AND the enviroment.

I am by no means arguing that the health care status-quo is ideal, and I am not afraid of or opposed to change. However, I sharply disagree with you that Obamacare will be better for the people.

 

[James Murphy]

This bill is trash, I could go on and on about it, but don't have the time. Check out this article though, it's a very good read:

http://mises.org/daily/3914

fear-mongering tripe. at least with health care we are trying to take some postive steps forward... far more noble than doing nothing, AGAIN.

more time and revisions wouldn't make a difference... conservative dogma would win out amongst those inclined to it's "ministry of fear" propaganda either way you slice it. the health care bill may well not be perfect, but it damned sure cannot "ruin the country", or any of the other childishly inane sound-bites the Right spew out daily. to understand that is to understand that doing nothing would amount yet another victory for the insurance lobby and their interests.

"ruin the country"... pffffttt

 

[ahjteam]

However, I sharply disagree with you that Obamacare will be better for the people.

...and war on Iraq and Afganistan was?

 

[J.DavisNJ]

...and war on Iraq and Afganistan was?

Why the unnecessary comments? I don't recall Aaron mentioning either war in this thread. I'd just like this to stay on topic and the unnecessary assumptions will surely derail this thread.

-Joe

 

[Erkan]

Erkan I love you (in the most heterosexual of ways).

Oh baby, just get me drunk enough and we'll see what happens! =D Errh nah, scratch that.. but yeah uhm, I guess I should thank you for loving me in the most heterosexual of ways. Hell, I love you too in the most heterosexual of ways!

 

[John_C]

Why are so many Americans scared of their government having control over their lives? What's wrong with a bit of socialism every so often?



edit: i sure as hell trust my government more than i trust big business. At least politicians pretend to be thinking about everyones welfare.

 

[ahjteam]

Why the unnecessary comments? I don't recall Aaron mentioning either war in this thread. I'd just like this to stay on topic and the unnecessary assumptions will surely derail this thread.

-Joe

It is not derailing, you are not looking at the bigger picture and comparing the biggest things the presidents most likely will be remembered between the Obama and Bush leaderships. If you compare starting off with great economy, engaging not only one, but TWO major wars (and having a major economic crisis on the side) OR starting off with huge economic crisis AND major attempt improving american healthcare system to cover almost people from the quarter it is covering now, which one would you say is better for the people?

edit: And someone said that the bill was rushed and that they had 3 days to read 1000 pages... Then explain to me, why is this chart dated back to September 18, 2008:

http://awesome.good.is/goodsheet/goodsheet002health.html

 

[Metaltastic]

i sure as hell trust my government more than i trust big business. At least politicians pretend to be thinking about everyones welfare.

WWWWWWOOOOOORRRRRRDDDDDD

 

[John_C]

from the quarter it is covering now

i could swear it was that a quarter don't have insurance or something like that? not the other way around

 

[jangoux]

Whoever complains about this healthcare bill should come to brazil and test healthcare. You got health security plan ? Huh, bad docs, 4-hour wait. Got money for private healthcare? 100 bucks (for a country where minimum wage is around $260 and 80% of population gets this) and wait. Got nothing just public health ? Wait 16 hours and pray you wont die. I see no problems paying taxes so the government can decide what it does with my money - I understand that if I wont use whatever benefits they provide, someone will and that will improve the country. I hate taxes as much as anyone, but its a painful need.

 

[Aaron Smith]

It is not derailing, you are not looking at the bigger picture and comparing the biggest things the presidents most likely will be remembered between the Obama and Bush leaderships. If you compare starting off with great economy, engaging not only one, but TWO major wars (and having a major economic crisis on the side) OR starting off with huge economic crisis AND major attempt improving american healthcare system to cover almost people from the quarter it is covering now, which one would you say is better for the people?

edit: And someone said that the bill was rushed and that they had 3 days to read 1000 pages... Then explain to me, why is this chart dated back to September 18, 2008:

http://awesome.good.is/goodsheet/goodsheet002health.html

Dude, I said absolutely nothing about Iraq and Afghanistan. And who said I'm comparing Presidents? Why would I do that? What bearing does that have on this conversation? Of course Obama and the Democrats mean well, but what I'm talking about is whether or not the current health care ideas will actually be good when put into practice- I say, they will not.