USA healthcare overhaul

[Aaron Smith]

fear-mongering tripe. at least with health care we are trying to take some postive steps forward... far more noble than doing nothing, AGAIN.

more time and revisions wouldn't make a difference... conservative dogma would win out amongst those inclined to it's "ministry of fear" propaganda either way you slice it. the health care bill may well not be perfect, but it damned sure cannot "ruin the country", or any of the other childishly inane sound-bites the Right spew out daily. to understand that is to understand that doing nothing would amount yet another victory for the insurance lobby and their interests.

"ruin the country"... pffffttt

Merely trying to take positive steps forward can easily be a bad thing if it is done incorrectly. You are a smart dude and I am certain you understand this, so I am surprised that you are so quick you claim that what's being done right now is most definitely positive. I would much rather have discussions and debates about the inner-workings of health care itself, rather than leave intact the assumption that insurance = the answer. And certainly you weren't the first person to bring politics into this thread, but it's silly to me that you would immediately jump all over that article and proclaim that it is merely fear-mongering, akin to the politicized fear-mongering we often get from the Right. To lump the Austrian School thinker into that category is nonsensical.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

It is not derailing, you are not looking at the bigger picture and comparing the biggest things the presidents most likely will be remembered between the Obama and Bush leaderships. If you compare starting off with great economy, engaging not only one, but TWO major wars (and having a major economic crisis on the side) OR starting off with huge economic crisis AND major attempt improving american healthcare system to cover almost people from the quarter it is covering now, which one would you say is better for the people?

edit: And someone said that the bill was rushed and that they had 3 days to read 1000 pages... Then explain to me, why is this chart dated back to September 18, 2008:

http://awesome.good.is/goodsheet/goodsheet002health.html

Er, what?

Not once did I allude to war being better for the American people. Comparing the presidents simply doesn't matter anymore. We are discussing this healthcare bill, it's consequences, pros and cons, etc, in the FUTURE, moving forward. I'm done arguing Bush vs. Obama. It has been done to death and is irrelevant now. I'm also not arguing that Obama didn't have a lot on his shoulders when he entered office. Not really sure where you got this from...

Not looking at the bigger picture? IMO you are looking at the wrong picture. I don't care to discuss how much better X president is than X anymore, or our image as a country in the world right now. This has zero to do with how this current bill will affect us as citizens.

-Joe

 

[lolzgreg]

Ok well we're gonna take all of lolzgreg's amps and distribute them evenly among all the Sneapsters. lol

How did my amplifiers get dragged into this conversation

You don't want mine anyway... you want Eddy's

On a more serious note, my healthcare is expensive as is. If it gets cheaper, I'll be happy.

The biggest issue with this nation is the tax cap. What kind of bullshit is that? Shouldn't someone who makes $40 million dollars a year have to pay a million or two in taxes? Two million dollars could give a few hundred people healthcare.

 

[Erkan]

Well greg, I guess the mentality in US is like "making money > being healthy", while it's the other way around in communist Sweden/Finland etc. We put our cap on the healthcare expense to avoid having people going bankrupt because they were unfortunate enough to get really ill, while the US puts their cap on taxes so that those who feel it's ok to be as rich as 10000 avarage citizens combined, can go ahead and do just that and continue not giving a flying fuck about their fellow citizens, and then go on and on about their bullshit patriotism.

I think the tax cap should only be available to newly started companies to help them grow and become stable.

 

[iHate]

survival of the fittest brooooooooooo's

alcohol solves everything, we need a option republic getting drunk, yesssssssssssss, tax the rich and give me liquor!

 

[Kazrog]

I'm against the reform. We should be able to choose how we spend our money. The problem with taking taxpayers' money and putting it into a big pot is that it gets abused by freeloaders more often than not. Take a look at the welfare system, food stamps, WIC checks, etc. - they are abused far more than they are helping people who are truly in need.

The only way a system like this can work is if there are checks and balances put in place. Abuse of the system needs to be codified into law, and abusers of the system should be cut off from service. Then, and perhaps only then, with rigorous enforcement and strict qualifications, could socialized _anything_ begin to make sense. I'm not against the concept, just realistic about the outcome we often see.

Tax is a form of investment - investment in one's own nation of residence. If you make a private investment, such as a mutual fund, you see a balance sheet (at minimum) quarterly of where your money is going. Why don't we have the same thing with taxes? Obama campaigned on a similar concept and got my vote in part because of that, but ever since he's been elected he's turned into a different person, which I'm very angry about.

 

[TheDriller]

Well greg, I guess the mentality in US is like "making money > being healthy", while it's the other way around in communist Sweden/Finland etc. We put our cap on the healthcare expense to avoid having people going bankrupt because they were unfortunate enough to get really ill, while the US puts their cap on taxes so that those who feel it's ok to be as rich as 10000 avarage citizens combined, can go ahead and do just that and continue not giving a flying fuck about their fellow citizens, and then go on and on about their bullshit patriotism.

I think the tax cap should only be available to newly started companies to help them grow and become stable.

Word Comrade

 

[James Murphy]

shane, i agree that abuse of the system should be punished... but, i just know far too many hard working people that can't afford health insurance, and my sister is one of them... i was one of them, and only survived because a teaching hospital thought my case was "interesting"... i was most certainly no free-looader. i was just in a profession within which a large majority of it's practitioners are not able to afford insurance.

now i have one helluva pre-existing condition, and while i do have some limited insurance now, and a prescription drug plan, i can in NO WAY afford the insurance i really need, nor could i even get approved for it, thanks to the pre-existing condition factor. this is why i'm not against the bill... because of my own case and others like me.

hell, my own mother found herself in the same situation for nearly 4 years, after 20 years as a Nurse... nothing close to being a freeloader ever in her life... i lived in terrible fear of something going wrong with her health during those years. she had to win a lawsuit with a hefty pay-out in order to finally get insurance... but had she developed an ongoing health issue during that 4 years she wouldn't have even been able to do that, despite having the money... all because of a "pre-existing condition"

sorry, but neither helpless old ladies that worked their whole lives, nor dedicated pro musicians that never became wealthy doing it, deserve to be denied insurance or qualified as moochers of the system. never mind all the sick children whose work-a-day job-holding, hard-working parents that can barely afford to keep the rent paid and food on the table, that desperately need a health plan of more substance than the parents just being forced to wait until something simple develops into something dire and walking into an emergency room.

you're a sharp guy Shane, and you can see the cracks in the bill, and all the possibilities for misuse, etc... but you led an entirely different life to the type of people that need this bill, or one very like it, and it just may be that you lack the perspective to see that clearly.

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

Everyone keeps saying "The Bill".

"The Bill" we're all talking about is a piece of shit, and pretty soon, everyone will know it - I am nearly positive that it's NOT designed the way that we would all like to see it. Yes, there needs to be "A BILL", with considerable and meaningful overhauls to our system, but I simply do not trust this administration, or this senate to give us what we would all ideally be fair. I interpret this bill as income redistribution, and it's compelte and utter bullshit.

Sorry to hear that folks don't have insurance, and yes, it's sad in this day and age that we live in a society that just recently mapped the genome of cancer, yet we have people that can't afford antibiotics to overcome an upper-respiratory infection. But, mark my words - "The Bill" is seriously bad news!

A BILL should be drafted AFTER the finance committe reviews the EXISTING tax laws and regulations and eliminates all of the other failed and bloated / pork barrel programs out there. But, because "The Bill" is POLITICAL, and NOT in the best interest of the CITIZEN, that will never happen.

 

[James Murphy]

says you. but we'll see.

 

[Joematthews]

How the fuck can you freeload on healthcare? You either need treatment or you don't or am I missing something?

The american health care system is rated 37th in the world by WHO. Pretty much every country above it (if not EVERY country) has some form of socialised health care. Most of these countries make you pay less in taxes than you pay for health insurance in the USA. Serisouly get the fuck out with opposing health care reform, even if the implementation is still sketchy as hell at the moment the idea is completely solid, tried and tested.

Joe

 

[ahjteam]

The american health care system is rated 37th in the world by WHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study). A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries.

 

[Kazrog]

you're a sharp guy Shane, and you can see the cracks in the bill, and all the possibilities for misuse, etc... but you led an entirely different life to the type of people that need this bill, or one very like it, and it just may be that you lack the perspective to see that clearly.

James, I don't have health insurance, nor can I afford it. If something comparable to what happened to you happened to me, I would be just as screwed. I have plenty of perspective about this issue, and nobody is debating that there are millions of people who would greatly benefit from socialized healthcare.

Obviously, the current health insurance system doesn't work because of price fixing and corruption, so it needs some competition and the government is theoretically a good contender for that... that's the whole reason we're having this big debate now.

My entire point was that the USA doesn't have a very good track record with social programs, which are constantly victimized by freeloaders, while truly needy people go without help. Maybe this one will fare better than the others I mentioned.

One good place to start is by reading the full text of the bill as passed by congress, which to be honest, I haven't read myself. Full text is here:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3962/text

Enjoy!

UPDATE: among many other things that show me evidence that the bill clearly addresses abuse, after some targeted searches inside the document, I've found this:

SEC. 326. APPLICATION OF FRAUD AND ABUSE PROVISIONS.

Provisions of civil law identified by the Secretary by regulation, in consultation with the Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services, that impose sanctions with respect to waste, fraud, and abuse under Medicare, such as sections 3729 through 3733 of title 31, United States Code (commonly known as the False Claims Act), shall also apply to the public health insurance option.

So, it will be primarily enforced under existing laws. The difference is, this is a much bigger program with more people overseeing it, and there are private health care institutions who will have to deal with additional government paperwork in order to manage abuse/fraud and to properly document cases.

At this point, my feeling is that what I've read of the bill so far has good intentions. We won't know what this will actually be like until we try it. Since the system is broken as it is, I suppose this is one approach to trying to fix it.

However, I wonder if the DOJ has considered going after the insurance companies for violation of antitrust laws?

 

[John_C]

Am I a bit too soft in that I think you shouldn't let people die just coz they're lazy/incompetent/too emotionally FUBAR'd to get and keep hold of a job. I'd happily take a bit of tax hike so as the bum down the road doesn't die of TB, irrelevant of how much he "ought" to get off his ass and get a job.

*i say this all hypothetically, seeing as i live in rural england i.e. public healthcare everyone pays for (seriously, all along the Americans were worried about communists when their "special relationship" buddies here are clearly government controlled socialists) and no homeless people for miles

 

[Kazrog]

Am I a bit too soft in that I think you shouldn't let people die just coz they're lazy/incompetent/too emotionally FUBAR'd to get and keep hold of a job. I'd happily take a bit of tax hike so as the bum down the road doesn't die of TB, irrelevant of how much he "ought" to get off his ass and get a job.

*i say this all hypothetically, seeing as i live in rural england i.e. public healthcare everyone pays for (seriously, all along the Americans were worried about communists when their "special relationship" buddies here are clearly government controlled socialists) and no homeless people for miles

There's social services out there, there's a lot of resources for homeless people, at least in theory. The flipside is, many of these people are legally insane or developmentally disabled and lack the ability to look after their own basic needs.

The system is crushed under the weight of the millions of homeless out there as it is, and SOMEBODY has to foot the bill for these people for shelter/institutions/health care, etc. - if they are to receive any of these things at all. The money doesn't just come out of nowhere, and almost all homeless shelters and institutions are overcrowded or filled to capacity. Many of these people have been abandoned by their families.

I don't think you're being soft at all, but the US healthcare reform bill as it stands right now isn't as simple as anyone off the street being able to walk in somewhere and get free healthcare. It's really about making healthcare more attainable, it's not a pure handout, because that's simply not possible.

I was against it, but the more I read about it, the more I feel that it's a worthwhile experiment at worst, and the change we need at best.

 

[James Murphy]

I was against it, but the more I read about it, the more I feel that it's a worthwhile experiment at worst, and the change we need at best.

glad to read that Shane... it's exactly where i'm coming from... despite Aaron's assertions that i'm somehow misinformed, i've done quite a lot of my own reading on the matter and made up my own mind... and zero listening to conservative radio/daytime tv on the matter.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

So you were not proud of any of the accomplishments of our country before this bill would be passed?

Even though I disagree with this particular bill, I do agree that we need healthcare reform in some way, shape, or form.

Buttt, that statement regarding the flag makes me think that you are ashamed of our country enough not to sport a flag. I'm guessing you are against our foreign policy, that is fine...but why not fly the flag in support of American values that made us a great nation and allows anyone to prosper given they put in the work necessary to achieve it.

-Joe

There is a lot to be proud of if you are American. It's still the greatest country in the world. However, our capitalist, competitive way of doing things creates a major flaw at the most basic level -- if you are not financially successful, then you don't deserve to get the health coverage that others do. I just don't think that's right. On that basic, fundamental level, we should all have an equal shot at staying alive. And we don't.

What makes it exponentially worse is the reason why we don't have equality in health care. It's not because it's "socialist." Equal health care is a major threat to health care providers. Don't get me started on how evil they are. They make Norweigan death metallers look like fucking saints. The medical industry is so corrupt, bleh. The fuckers at the top of the medical food chain are satan's fucking right hand men. And it filters all the way down to every doctor. I'm not saying doctors are evil. But they're heavily influenced by these HMO soldiers of satan. It's a "Medicated Nation" as Warrel Dane says. And it is all about the money.

It's been this way for a long time and it's really our country's biggest flaw.

No, I don't own a flag, though I sometimes I'll sway those little ones on the 4th of July with scarred pride. When this health care bill gets passed, I'll be the first one in line to buy a big flag and you'll see it on the front of my house that day.

 

[Line666]

It's still the greatest country in the world.

I'm sorry, but I do groan every time I read this statement, who decides these things? It just smacks as totally blind sighted patriotism.

It's an opinion, not a fact and it's pretty much an opinion rooted in the fact that you live there.

 

[John_C]

What is it about the USA that makes it the "greatest" country in the world? Also, what is really meant by "great"?

 

[James Murphy]

part of it is patriotism... but to blanketly call it "blind patriotism" is being just as silly as those who say it... another part is that the US is the only remaining legit "super-power", for whatever that's worth... and there's also the idea common here, but not so common in the country's foreign critics thoughts on the US, that the country is not it's government, it's the people... and even without government implemented foreign aid, for example, the aid given to the rest of the world by citizens via charities and individuals is more than any other two countries combined... these are the types of things your average american has in mind when saying that. i do personally think it's a tad obnoxious to say, irrespective of it's truth or falsehood. it cannot but come off as arrogant, and it's more of a "personal truth" than a universal one, a personal feeling that many americans have.

i'm a bit different... i like my country over all, but i have no problem seeing it's faults... i'm a bit more cosmopolitan than an average US citizen, having lived in Europe for several years... i get fairly embarrassed when people say things like "greatest country" blah blah... but i am an american, so i still have those feelings too, but in different degrees.

that was a bit more circumspect a reply than i set out to write, but i just can't be "that american guy". i do prefer to live here than anywhere else though, as much as i love visiting the UK and Europe... i'm also sure that i would feel differently if i weren't American.