USA healthcare overhaul

[kaomao]

and this is the exact reason why I want to visit the states some day and live there for a couple years before doing something else. I like the fact that there are people from all over the world in USA but they're all considered americans - if they have a citizenship that is. In Sweden, you're surely enough a swede if you're a citizen... well, on paper you are. If I walk up to a blonde swedish dude and say I'm swedish, he would not accept it. There's too much of a race "pureness" going on here behind the scenes, although "officially" it's not like that. That's what I like about USA... a gazillion mixed races but they're all american.

that's no mistery considering what sweden did to keep your nation as purest as possible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Sweden)

 

[Line666]

part of it is patriotism... but to blanketly call it "blind patriotism" is being just as silly as those who say it... another part is that the US is the only remaining legit "super-power", for whatever that's worth... and there's also the idea common here, but not so common in the country's foreign critics thoughts on the US, that the country is not it's government... even without government implemented foreign aid, for example, the aid given to the rest of the world by citizens via charities and individuals is more than any other two countries combined... these are the types of things your average american has in mind when saying that.

I have to disagree James, you could be sat in any country in the world and make that statement, maybe there are elements of truth in what is said as you have pointed out, but every country has something that it is perhaps considered 'the best at', but it's not a competition, so in that respect I feel it is blind sighted, because as personal opinions go it could be applicable to anywhere irregardless of circumstance.

It also sounds egotistical and what is ego but blind arrogance, to assume that there is some sort of 'greatness' chart and then to assume you are the greatest in said chart is just silly. It's really head up own ass stuff, and everyone knows there's nothing but shit up there.

 

[James Murphy]

yep Owen, you totally misunderstood my post.

 

[Aaron Smith]

There is a lot to be proud of if you are American. It's still the greatest country in the world. However, our capitalist, competitive way of doing things creates a major flaw at the most basic level -- if you are not financially successful, then you don't deserve to get the health coverage that others do.

Sorry, but this is a very inaccurate description of the current system. A majority of people still seem to believe that the US is completely free-market capitalism, including the health care industry- that is false. The medical field is already very heavily regulated, including health insurance providers, and much of the problems and imbalances apparent in the system today are directly related to government intervention. The answer is not increased government presence and regulation, but less. Allow a free market to exist, allow legitimate competition to exist across state lines between insurance companies, remove current regulations which limit insurance companies' ability to pool risk in a way that accurately reflects the health of those in those pools, allow insurance companies to write any kind of contract whatsoever with any group of individuals, and you will see prices fall off very rapidly on average. This isn't the only problem in health care, but it is a significant part of it.

Also, I have to take issue with you that health care is somehow a right, and not a good. I certainly agree that no one is more deserving of health care than another, but to say that health care is a right is to say that you must have the ability to force health care providers to serve you. A hungry person has no right to steal from a grocery store- it's the same thing. The solution is not to say that you are owed health care or that you are owed food, because health care workers and grocery store workers are there to make a living. Food is reasonable because in general, it is priced by the free market, and the government does not meddle with the food industry anywhere close to as much as they meddle with the medical industry.

The solution is to allow the free market to set prices- allow the market to work, and prices will adjust accordingly. As long as someone else pays the expense, those expenses will be overpriced because incentive to keep prices lower is removed. Insurance should only be needed to cover expensive procedures, and everything else should be paid for out of pocket. One way the government could help this work, is to allow Americans to create medical savings accounts, which would be tax free (so you could keep more of the fruit of your labor), and could only be spent on health care needs. Why does this not exist already!? It wouldn't add to the deficit, and it would immediately allow Americans to have more money to put towards basic health care needs. It's a no-brainer to me.

 

[Line666]

yep Owen, you totally misunderstood my post.

Really? You just obviously weren't clear enough

 

[James Murphy]

sorry Aaron, my own personal experiences directly contradict every single thing you have to say on the matter. just can't take your posts too seriously dude.

 

[James Murphy]

Really? You just obviously weren't clear enough

no i was crystal clear... you just obviously aren't good enough at reading

clearly, i was simply answering the question as to why many americans fell that way, and NOT saying that they are right.

i went on to say that i too have some patriotic feelings for my country, but that they would likely be different if i lived in a different country.

i really can't believe i have to spell this out... it was pretty damned clear, and your response was like you were responding to someone that wrote: "this is why we say we are the GREATEST, and it's totally CORRECT, and i feel exactly the SAME WAY!!"

i said nothing of the sort.... you just can't see it because you have your head up you own ass and everybody knows there' only, shit u... oh never-mind.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Haha. Then please, deconstruct my post. How can we have a discussion if you don't point out what you think I'm wrong on?

 

[Joematthews]

Aaron, does the module you have described work anywhere else in the world at the moment?

Joe

 

[Line666]

no i was crystal clear... you just obviously aren't good enough at reading

clearly, i was simply answering the question as to why many americans fell that way, and NOT saying that they are right.

i went on to say that i too have some patriotic feelings for my country, but that they would likely be different if i lived in a different country.

i really can't believe i have to spell this out... it was pretty damned clear, and your response was like you were responding to someone that wrote: "this is why we say we are the GREATEST, and it's totally CORRECT, and i feel exactly the SAME WAY!!"

i said nothing of the sort.

Hey hey, easy there solider, I was only winding you up whilst I went back and read it again.

Well you called me out on saying it was blind, I never assumed that your personal stance was "we're the best", just that you thought my initial statement was "silly" because that is what you said, and that you were justifying why people presented this sort of personal opinion and that it was not infact "blind" patriotism.

So yes, it was in the simplest terms possible a blanket statement for blanket arrogance, I don't think theres anything wrong with that, but obviously you do, either that or you are you just getting tired of my so called 'broad strokes' mentality.

Bottom line is it's a stupid fucking statement, regardless of why anyone says it.

 

[James Murphy]

Haha. Then please, deconstruct my post. How can we have a discussion if you don't point out what you think I'm wrong on?

i already said what i think you're wrong on... every single point

suffice to say for now though that if you think the "free market" will compel Insurance companies to insure people, even babies, with pre-existing conditions, you're drinking the "special" Kool-Aid.

 

[James Murphy]

Hey hey, easy their solider, I was only winding you up whilst I went back and read it again.

Well you called me out on saying it was blind, I never assumed that your personal stance was "we're the best", just that you thought my initial statement was "silly" because that is what you said, and that you were justifying why people presented this sort of personal opinion and that it was not infact "blind" patriotism.

So yes, in it was simplest terms a blanket statement for blanket arrogance, I don't think theres anything wrong with that, but obviously you do, either that or you are you just getting tired of my so called 'broad strokes' mentality.

Bottom line is it's a stupid fucking statement, regardless of why anyone says it.

yep. it's a stupid statement.... doesn't mean that everyone who believes it is engaging in "blind" patriotism. many who believe it are far more informed on world politics than you or i combined. my point is that when an intelligent american says this, it's just an expression of personal belief in the highest standard that our country ("our country" meaning the people, not the government) aspires to, and what we as individuals try to hold it to... and not really an attempt to state some universal truth that should be evident to all.

to be sure though, there are plenty of red-necked yahoos in the US that totally believe it purely as a matter of blind patriotism. they also all believe that Noah's Ark was a true story, and that women should shut up.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Come on man, you are still coming to all of your conclusions, based on the underlying assumption that insurance = the core answer to health care costs. Yay for you- you didn't listen to any conservative radio or daytime TV on the matter (neither have I), but how much effort have you made researching what health care might look like without insurance companies being the primary payers?

 

[James Murphy]

Come on man, you are still coming to all of your conclusions, based on the underlying assumption that insurance = the core answer to health care costs. Yay for you- you didn't listen to any conservative radio or daytime TV on the matter (neither have I), but how much effort have you made researching what health care might look like without insurance companies being the primary payers?

you didn't address my challenge, you artful dodger, you

 

[ahjteam]

One way the government could help this work, is to allow Americans to create medical savings accounts, which would be tax free (so you could keep more of the fruit of your labor), and could only be spent on health care needs. Why does this not exist already!?

Well, that is pretty much the way taxes work with heathcare. Majority of people pay taxes "for nothing", until you have to go to the hospital. Lets say you are insured, the way it would change: Like I counted earlier, it would be like 3 dollars a day that you would spend on average to the healthcare as taxes, compared to the current system where you don't pay anything if you aren't insured, then you get a huge jackpot when hospitalized, which can cause personal bankruptcy on worst cases.

 

[Line666]

my point is that when an intelligent american says this, it's just an expression of personal belief in the highest standard that our country ("our country" meaning the people, not the government) aspires to

When an aspiration is presented like it is a fundamental pillar of knowledge, it comes across as a shortsighted statement though I'm sure you'll agree.

It's the presentation that is the issue here, it does the person that makes the statement no favours, because irregardless of stance it comes across as a fickle statement to make, note that I didn't say anyone was "engaging" in anything, merely that it "smacked of" - ie that's what it looks like.

 

[James Murphy]

When an aspiration is presented like it is a fundamental pillar of knowledge, it comes across as a shortsighted statement though I'm sure you'll agree.

It's the presentation that is the issue here, it does the person that makes the statement no favours, because irregardless of stance it comes across as a fickle statement to make, note that I didn't say anyone was "engaging" in anything, merely that it "smacked of" - ie that's what it looks like.

pretty sure this is exactly what i have said... so, um... yeah. but i already said it, so... whatevs

 

[Line666]

pretty sure this is exactly what i have said... so, um... yeah. but i already said it, so... whatevs

Just reiterating for clarity

Yeah, cheers James, that argument went fucking nowhere

 

[J.DavisNJ]

There is a lot to be proud of if you are American. It's still the greatest country in the world. However, our capitalist, competitive way of doing things creates a major flaw at the most basic level -- if you are not financially successful, then you don't deserve to get the health coverage that others do. I just don't think that's right. On that basic, fundamental level, we should all have an equal shot at staying alive. And we don't.

What makes it exponentially worse is the reason why we don't have equality in health care. It's not because it's "socialist." Equal health care is a major threat to health care providers. Don't get me started on how evil they are. They make Norweigan death metallers look like fucking saints. The medical industry is so corrupt, bleh. The fuckers at the top of the medical food chain are satan's fucking right hand men. And it filters all the way down to every doctor. I'm not saying doctors are evil. But they're heavily influenced by these HMO soldiers of satan. It's a "Medicated Nation" as Warrel Dane says. And it is all about the money.

It's been this way for a long time and it's really our country's biggest flaw.

No, I don't own a flag, though I sometimes I'll sway those little ones on the 4th of July with scarred pride. When this health care bill gets passed, I'll be the first one in line to buy a big flag and you'll see it on the front of my house that day.

Understood, understood.

I'm just going to wait and see what happens in the coming years with this bill. I've said most of what I needed to say, so we shall see.

-Joe

 

[Joematthews]

My question is still unanswered. Probably because the answer is no.

Joe