I am really into the new Barren Earth so far. It's got some great songs with all the best elements scattered throughout.
What are you listening to?
- Thread starter xptrinity
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papajohnny
Member
In Times, finally.
First listen. Very good, though I must listen it several more times before forming a final opinion.
First listen. Very good, though I must listen it several more times before forming a final opinion.
Eurynome
Kukkahattutäti
Checking out the new Nightwish. Doesn't match my personal taste the same way Barren Earth and Enslaved do, but beautiful nevertheless.
(The one complaint I have with it is that they're not quiteusing the full power of Floor's voice - or Marco's, for that matter.)
(The one complaint I have with it is that they're not quiteusing the full power of Floor's voice - or Marco's, for that matter.)
papajohnny
Member
I concur. Great album, more cohesive beast than RIITIIR and has improvements in various aspects, but doesn't have the same power for me, yeah. Though I am a bit biased here, RIITIIR having a special meaning for me. Still, In Times is a great album and Enslaved is easily one of the best bands in the history of the genre.
papajohnny
Member
Small, and final update on my In Times impression - great album, really, but awful production. I've realized that this is the thing that is preventing me from enjoying it fully. I'm not going to hide the fact that I haven't bought it, but the several FLAC rips I got from...several different places, they all sound awfully compressed. Which is bad. Very bad. RIITIIR sounded compressed too IIRC, but not as badly as this one.
I am thinking how glorious this album would sound if it had the studio treatment and production akin to, say, The Serpent and the Sphere from Agalloch, which is, incidentally, not the best effort from those guys, but certainly the best produced one, and for me, one of the best produced metal albums in the past few years.
I am thinking how glorious this album would sound if it had the studio treatment and production akin to, say, The Serpent and the Sphere from Agalloch, which is, incidentally, not the best effort from those guys, but certainly the best produced one, and for me, one of the best produced metal albums in the past few years.
tuonelan
Mostly Harmless
Enslaved albums always sound fairly compressed to my ear. I think it may just be part of how Ivar hears the music in his head and an artifact of that low-fi Norwegian metal aesthetic from the 90s. Even on their albums where they do a good job of creating a sense of space with the instruments, the individual instruments seem fairly flattened in signal. It's the one place where I think that the band is at odds with their musical heroes.
papajohnny
Member
Listening to early Norwegian bm, sure, the sound is flat, low-fi and monotonous, but it doesn't sound forced, in a lack of a better term. It sounds very natural.
Listening to their latest efforts, this is digital compression. They may have been aiming for the flat sound of early black metal, but this is not a way to do it. This is more like a kid compressing high quality format like FLAC to MP3 in order to fit the song into his player. The comparison may not be the best, and I sure as hell know very little about production, but I know when I hear great musicianship ruined by unnecessary digital compression. I respect Ivar's vision here, if that is truly the case, but it is just...wrong in my ears.
On the other hand, NB is spearheading the trend of digital compression in the metal world - so they could be a major factor influencing the band? I can't tell for sure now, but IIRC older Enslaved albums aren't as compressed as this one is. Even RIITIIR sounded less compressed.
I could just be spouting nonsense here though, with imaginary analogies and comparisons - but one thing is sure for me - this record has poor production that doesn't do it justice.
Listening to their latest efforts, this is digital compression. They may have been aiming for the flat sound of early black metal, but this is not a way to do it. This is more like a kid compressing high quality format like FLAC to MP3 in order to fit the song into his player. The comparison may not be the best, and I sure as hell know very little about production, but I know when I hear great musicianship ruined by unnecessary digital compression. I respect Ivar's vision here, if that is truly the case, but it is just...wrong in my ears.
On the other hand, NB is spearheading the trend of digital compression in the metal world - so they could be a major factor influencing the band? I can't tell for sure now, but IIRC older Enslaved albums aren't as compressed as this one is. Even RIITIIR sounded less compressed.
I could just be spouting nonsense here though, with imaginary analogies and comparisons - but one thing is sure for me - this record has poor production that doesn't do it justice.
tuonelan
Mostly Harmless
Now you got me going back through the Enslaved back catalog and listening to the production on each one to see what I can say about the differences in production. (Not that I know a ton about how to produce a mix, but I have a pretty good ear for listening. In an alternate universe I totally should have gone into sound engineering.) I don't own anything of theirs earlier than Monumension, so that's where I'll start.
Monumension - Very hot recording with all the instruments and vocals recorded so high that the signal is on the edge of breaking up. The recording as a whole is very open and big sounding, but the vocals are behind the guitars and get a bit stepped on as a result. Drums are loose sounding. Guitars are not too compressed, but the signal is so hot that it's clipping and compressing as a result. Big, but raw and angry sounding.
Below the Lights - Dry and compressed overall. It opens up a bit more in the jazzier moments like the flute intro to Queen of Night, but otherwise it is very tight sounding. Drums are tight and compressed. It sounds like a smaller room than Monumension with not a lot of space between the instruments. Not a lot of bottom end to it either. Definitely a more trebly recording. Vocals are behind the guitars again, but not as far behind.
Isa - Warmer and more open again. A hot recording, but not as hot as Monumension. Vocals are given more room in the mix and come through more clearly, but the bass gets buried a lot. There's more bottom end, but less detail to that bottom end as it comes out flat and gets lost in the guitars. Drums are punchy, but the cymbals don't have much detail. Overall a pretty balanced recording, though. Guitars are a bit compressed, but the overall space still makes them sound tight rather than dry.
Ruun - More open again with guitars given distinct space on the left and right. Somewhat compressed, but clear. Drums are articulate and punchy, but dry and compressed. Vocals are a little lower in the mix than they could be, but they get enough room to stand out. Bass is a bit thin and needs more presence to cut through better. As with Isa, the keys really open up the soundspace a lot and add to the sense of dimension.
Vertebrae - Biggest sounding recording since Monumension, but it has a lot more headroom and does not come off too hot and clipped as a result. All the instruments have enough space in the recording to be heard. A bit compressed, still, and Herbrand's vocals lack a bit of presence and could use a touch more reverb.
Axioma Ethica Odini - Lots of space and openness in the recording. Guitars have a decent amount of reverb in the mix to open them up and make them seem warmer. Vocals take a step further forward in the mix and gain presence as a result. Still compressed enough to sound tight, but not so compressed that it sounds buzzy. The vocals sound bigger and better than on any of the previous recordings. If there's a weakness, it's that the cymbals really don't stand out much or have much life.
Riitiir - More compressed again than Axioma, but the combination of the vocals moving forward yet again and the much more open and dynamic drum sound and audible cymbals makes the whole recording seem big. Bass gets more compressed and drops back a notch in the mix again. Vocals have a lot of reverb. Guitars have a bit less reverb. I like Axioma's mix a bit better, but that's mostly a matter of taste and priorities.
In Times - Vocals forward with lots of presence and reverb. Drums are big sounding and have a lot of reverb and a lot of life to the cymbals. Bass sounds round and warm. Guitars have some reverb, but lose some definition so that the rhythm parts are not quite as crisp. First time that the guitars get buried in the mix and stepped on a bit, but only in the bigger, busier parts. Opening of Nauthir Bleeding sounds great. It's only when the full band comes in with distortion and keys that the mix becomes too saturated to provide enough definition. The keys wash out a bit of the guitar riffing. Not a bad mix to my ear, but it does show off the vocals a bit to the detriment of the rhythm guitars. It's like Ivar was being generous to Cato and Herbrand and modest with himself.
Monumension - Very hot recording with all the instruments and vocals recorded so high that the signal is on the edge of breaking up. The recording as a whole is very open and big sounding, but the vocals are behind the guitars and get a bit stepped on as a result. Drums are loose sounding. Guitars are not too compressed, but the signal is so hot that it's clipping and compressing as a result. Big, but raw and angry sounding.
Below the Lights - Dry and compressed overall. It opens up a bit more in the jazzier moments like the flute intro to Queen of Night, but otherwise it is very tight sounding. Drums are tight and compressed. It sounds like a smaller room than Monumension with not a lot of space between the instruments. Not a lot of bottom end to it either. Definitely a more trebly recording. Vocals are behind the guitars again, but not as far behind.
Isa - Warmer and more open again. A hot recording, but not as hot as Monumension. Vocals are given more room in the mix and come through more clearly, but the bass gets buried a lot. There's more bottom end, but less detail to that bottom end as it comes out flat and gets lost in the guitars. Drums are punchy, but the cymbals don't have much detail. Overall a pretty balanced recording, though. Guitars are a bit compressed, but the overall space still makes them sound tight rather than dry.
Ruun - More open again with guitars given distinct space on the left and right. Somewhat compressed, but clear. Drums are articulate and punchy, but dry and compressed. Vocals are a little lower in the mix than they could be, but they get enough room to stand out. Bass is a bit thin and needs more presence to cut through better. As with Isa, the keys really open up the soundspace a lot and add to the sense of dimension.
Vertebrae - Biggest sounding recording since Monumension, but it has a lot more headroom and does not come off too hot and clipped as a result. All the instruments have enough space in the recording to be heard. A bit compressed, still, and Herbrand's vocals lack a bit of presence and could use a touch more reverb.
Axioma Ethica Odini - Lots of space and openness in the recording. Guitars have a decent amount of reverb in the mix to open them up and make them seem warmer. Vocals take a step further forward in the mix and gain presence as a result. Still compressed enough to sound tight, but not so compressed that it sounds buzzy. The vocals sound bigger and better than on any of the previous recordings. If there's a weakness, it's that the cymbals really don't stand out much or have much life.
Riitiir - More compressed again than Axioma, but the combination of the vocals moving forward yet again and the much more open and dynamic drum sound and audible cymbals makes the whole recording seem big. Bass gets more compressed and drops back a notch in the mix again. Vocals have a lot of reverb. Guitars have a bit less reverb. I like Axioma's mix a bit better, but that's mostly a matter of taste and priorities.
In Times - Vocals forward with lots of presence and reverb. Drums are big sounding and have a lot of reverb and a lot of life to the cymbals. Bass sounds round and warm. Guitars have some reverb, but lose some definition so that the rhythm parts are not quite as crisp. First time that the guitars get buried in the mix and stepped on a bit, but only in the bigger, busier parts. Opening of Nauthir Bleeding sounds great. It's only when the full band comes in with distortion and keys that the mix becomes too saturated to provide enough definition. The keys wash out a bit of the guitar riffing. Not a bad mix to my ear, but it does show off the vocals a bit to the detriment of the rhythm guitars. It's like Ivar was being generous to Cato and Herbrand and modest with himself.
Eurynome
Kukkahattutäti
Wow, that's a detailed comparison, might make me listen to those albums with a different angle of attention the next time. (And Ivar & Co had better sound good live this weekend, as I'm travelling all across the continent to finally see them again.) My own ears are less well trained so I've never been a production nazi, but I sure wondered for a moment when the first pics from the Amo recording sessions featured only Kempers. Was rather relieved to find out that those had been used merely for the drum recording sessions. 
papajohnny
Member
You should get into sound engineering right now. Impressive and highly detailed comparison, to say at least.
I myself can't go through their back catalog right now, but I will take your word for it. Nonetheless, it doesn't change my opinion that Ivar & Co. are better musicians than music producers - or at least that their production doesn't fit my taste.
...
All this Enslaved talk reminded me - has anybody here listened to the band called Trinacria? Ivar, Grutle and Ice Dale played in it.
I myself can't go through their back catalog right now, but I will take your word for it. Nonetheless, it doesn't change my opinion that Ivar & Co. are better musicians than music producers - or at least that their production doesn't fit my taste.
...
All this Enslaved talk reminded me - has anybody here listened to the band called Trinacria? Ivar, Grutle and Ice Dale played in it.
tuonelan
Mostly Harmless
Not going to do it now that I have earned a Ph.D. in another field. It would mean starting over again from the bottom and having to learn from scratch. I'd have to send a message to myself back in 2002 when I was going back to college to get my Bachelor's Degree.
Interesting thing, speaking of Enslaved and compression and my descriptions. I read over some Angry Metal-Fi posts on The Angry Metal Guy blog where they were talking about The Loudness Wars and dynamic range compression. If I go in and measure the dynamic range of Below the Lights and compare it to In Times, then Below the Lights has a wider dynamic range (9 decibels) than In Times (6 decibels), and In Times can be called "more compressed." But that's the sound file as a whole. The compression I notice a lot in Below the Lights is the sort that happens not on the whole recording, but rather in the sound of the individual instruments where you lose a little bit of detail and nuance in order to make the sound more consistent by "squishing" the soundwave to give it a consistent sound (and also get some hiss as a side effect). I'm sure another part of it is the EQ of the instruments.
The guys at AMG blog with a Dynamic Range fetish all agree that Opeth's Pale Communion (10 decibels) sounds gorgeous and they seem to hate on Insominum's Shadows of the Dying Sun (5 decibels) for being a hot mess of a recording whose music deserves more space in which to breathe.
(And Trinacria is on my Wish List. I've heard it and like it, but I don't yet own it.)
Interesting thing, speaking of Enslaved and compression and my descriptions. I read over some Angry Metal-Fi posts on The Angry Metal Guy blog where they were talking about The Loudness Wars and dynamic range compression. If I go in and measure the dynamic range of Below the Lights and compare it to In Times, then Below the Lights has a wider dynamic range (9 decibels) than In Times (6 decibels), and In Times can be called "more compressed." But that's the sound file as a whole. The compression I notice a lot in Below the Lights is the sort that happens not on the whole recording, but rather in the sound of the individual instruments where you lose a little bit of detail and nuance in order to make the sound more consistent by "squishing" the soundwave to give it a consistent sound (and also get some hiss as a side effect). I'm sure another part of it is the EQ of the instruments.
The guys at AMG blog with a Dynamic Range fetish all agree that Opeth's Pale Communion (10 decibels) sounds gorgeous and they seem to hate on Insominum's Shadows of the Dying Sun (5 decibels) for being a hot mess of a recording whose music deserves more space in which to breathe.
(And Trinacria is on my Wish List. I've heard it and like it, but I don't yet own it.)
Really interesting thoughts. I never really pay that much attention to production, probably because I don't have a nice sound system. I do pay attention to poor mixing, though.
tuonelan
Mostly Harmless
Doesn't take much of a sound system to evaluate the production. (I listen to 256kbps mp3s on an iPhone and a laptop most of the time -- somewhere in the world there is an audiophile making hairball noises at the very thought.) It's mostly about concentrating, listening carefully and paying attention to the individual instruments and comparing recordings. If one recording sounds good on your system and another clips or sounds washed out then it tells you something. And some sounds are much more complex and easier to evaluate. Cymbals, for example, lose more and more life the more compressed the recording becomes.
I will say, though, that decent earphones make a difference. They don't have to be expensive, but they should be better than the cheap earbuds that came in the box to give you a full range of frequency and decent sensitivity. I'm about due to replace mine and I think I'll be getting bottom of the line Grados this time.
I will say, though, that decent earphones make a difference. They don't have to be expensive, but they should be better than the cheap earbuds that came in the box to give you a full range of frequency and decent sensitivity. I'm about due to replace mine and I think I'll be getting bottom of the line Grados this time.
papajohnny
Member
I'm not much of an audiophile, but I don't use MP3. For digital format, I use FLAC always. 320kbps only in case I do not own the album on disc/bandcamp, and I can't get it anywhere in that format. I have solid headphones, nothing high grade, but a very good Sennheiser piece. Since I've started using it, I've been noticing many finer details in the sound and mix that I was missing when listening on worse headphones, speakers and MP3.
Since then I've been exclusively dabbling with FLAC. I sound like an elite audiophile bitch now, but to be honest, this, to me, is the best way to enjoy music on digital format.
Since then I've been exclusively dabbling with FLAC. I sound like an elite audiophile bitch now, but to be honest, this, to me, is the best way to enjoy music on digital format.
tuonelan
Mostly Harmless
I'm all for anything that makes a person better able to enjoy their music.
From my new favorite metal blog, Metal-Fi, an analysis of how mp3 calculates the data it "loses" and how that affects the sound.
Pretty interesting.
I think if I had a bunch of FLAC files and a really good playback system and a quiet environment, I'd want to take the time to listen more intently and I'd find the music more absorbing as a result. That's only describes about 5% of my normal listening. The rest of the time I'm walking or driving or there's noise in the apartment complex or doing something else.
From my new favorite metal blog, Metal-Fi, an analysis of how mp3 calculates the data it "loses" and how that affects the sound.
Pretty interesting.
I think if I had a bunch of FLAC files and a really good playback system and a quiet environment, I'd want to take the time to listen more intently and I'd find the music more absorbing as a result. That's only describes about 5% of my normal listening. The rest of the time I'm walking or driving or there's noise in the apartment complex or doing something else.
papajohnny
Member
I understand what you're saying.
Up until a few months ago, I had a similar situation - only time I could properly listen to music is when I was back home with my old man's record and CD players. Other times it was basically as sort of background radiance - I know it's there, but I can't pay too much attention. However, I am often not at home, studying in other town, in which, coincidentally I have a roomate who, despite being a good guy, listens to some really shitty music. And loud. So there I am surrounded with little of my music and lots of crap.
A solution was found when I had an unexpected money injection from my University for being such a good boy - which I invested into said headphones. Now I am a high-quality-shit-free-over-hyphenated-music-enriched person. And I'm happy.
As for the article, I will read it later. Interested in what it has to say.
papajohnny
Member
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