What defines 'alternative' metal

[HamburgerBoy]

Sources that Throbbing Gristle started from the post-punk scene plz.

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

Besides, I'm willing to admit that Darkthrone is a black metal band entirely on the metal side of things. I'm talking more about all these prefixed and supposedly-experimental bands that really just fool metalheads with their terrible and limited taste in non-metal.

You do realize that some of those prefixes accompany other genres outside of black metal, right? Just take "symphonic" as one example. Symphonic elements don't actually have much of an effect on how the riffs are realized. Therefore, just from the one example, it makes no sense for you to have this categorical condemnation against "prefixed bands", while having no problem with the early second wave bands.

And don't even get me started on the post-Scandinavian "gothic metal" aka The Sisters of Mercy tribute acts with heavier guitar distortion.

Sisters of Mercy tribute acts? What, you mean like Sentenced and Tiamat?

And fwiw I don't really care that much about whether people want to call all of that stuff metal or not, but they could at least be honest enough to not be the same kinds of people that treat Faith No More or Soundgarden as if there isn't a trace of metal to be found. Metal + non-metal = alternative metal, that's the simplest and most consistent definition. I mean, shit, doesn't Anathema and crap get radio play in Europe anyways? It's just a bunch of self-hating American cuckolds fetishizing a different kind of alt.

Well, Anathema nowadays aren't even considered metal at all, so why mention them?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Sympho black is probably one of the more metallic cases; a good portion of it is just average black metal drowned in cheesy synths, so sure. 'Ambient/black', on the other hand...

Yeah, they'd be good examples. I know there's some Swano-related stuff too that fits, and others. I don't go out of my way to listen to those kinds of bands though.

 

[Omni]

Sources that Throbbing Gristle started from the post-punk scene plz.

Throbbing Gristle was formed around the same time in the UK and was associated with multiple post-punk acts such as Soft Cell, not to mention primary Throbbing Gristle Member Genesis P-Orridge's post-punk group Psychic TV. Other close relationships with other early post-punk musicians such as Nick Cave have also been documented. You can read some things in Rip It Up and Start Again by Simon Reynolds as well that firmly implant them as part of the same scene.

Cabaret Voltaire, the other forerunner of industrial music, was also a part of the same era.

I'm pretty much done with this conversation as of now, since I've proven all of the points that I feel strongly about, whether or not you agree with me despite evidence. You can do your own research on your own time if you need to know more.

---

Is it controversial that Ildjarn's ambient music is often much better than that of most of his contemporaries?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Soft Cell, Psychic TV, and the Birthday Party all formed after The Second Annual Report, let alone Throbbing Gristle's conception. Throbbing Gristle was an influence on all of them, sure, but their origins had nothing to do with post-punk, which proves my point that you're using the term alternative extremely broadly.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Also, listening to ambient music from metal artists is universally a bad idea.

 

[Omni]

How exactly aren't they from the same scene despite being from the same era and locale, performing together and often having musicians creating both genres of music?

Can you prove that they don't share influences and stylistic origins despite both of the main industrial forerunner groups either creating post-punk or being closely associated with post-punk acts?

Can you explain why most second-wave industrial acts cite experimental post-punk bands as influences on their sound?

You have avoided explaining these things throughout our conversation. You're really just being ignorant at this point because the link between these musical styles is well documented in books and interviews with musicians.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Because anyone with Google and five seconds to kill could easily confirm that Throbbing Gristle hardly formed as a band at all, let alone from a musical scene that only took off years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COUM_Transmissions

I'm not talking about "second-wave" industrial acts. I wouldn't deny that later industrial acts took from a wide variety of influences. I'm denying that its origin has anything to do with a reasonable definition of "alternative music".

 

[Omni]

Industrial music and post-punk music did originate in the same scene and general timeline as one another. Musicians from bands of both styles worked together and had similar general influences.

I'm not sure how the previous project of Genesis P-Orridge discounts that when it was not industrial music.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Show me some post-punk influencing Throbbing Gristle from 1976 or earlier or you have no proof.

 

[Omni]

Where did I say post-punk influenced Thribbing Gristle? I said both industrial and post-punk share common influences and originated in the same scene.

Also since you keep using Wikipedia as a source, the article on Throbbing Gristle says they are post-punk and cites multiple valid sources.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You've said multiple times that they came out of the same scene and etc. If you weren't implying that post-punk was an influence, then I don't see your point.

That article provides three sources. The first one has an excerpt that doesn't seem to actually refer to Throbbing Gristle or the term 'post-punk', the second is just some internet list referencing a Throbbing Gristle single that sounds more influenced by Kraftwerk than post-punk, the third references a book without providing a specific excerpt. Try again.

 

[Omni]

You can exist in the same musical scene and share influences with other bands in that scene without them influencing your band. Your arms must be about 60 feet long by now with all of the reaching you're doing here.

Throbbing Gristle clearly did exist alongside post-punk since musicians who collaborated with them also created it, as did main member Genesis P-Orridge. Their locale and timeline of existence supports this conclusion quite handily.

Also, when writing an article or a report, a valid literary source is not required to be excerpted as a part of said article. You are only required to show where the information can be found.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

So what are these influences that led to the creation of industrial music?

Every collaboration you've mentioned came after they had already established an industrial sound. You haven't proven anything on that point yet. This is all one big deflection to hide from your silly labeling of 'alternative' to nearly everything.

 

[Omni]

Early aggressive punk such as The Sex Pistols, proto-punk acts such as The Stooges, The Velvet Underground and John Peel's exposure of krautrock to UK audiences are considered primary influences both on post-punk and also the early industrial acts such as Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire. David Bowie was also a substantial influence on the image of performers in Throbbing Gristle and many post-punk and new wave artists.

William S. Burroughs is also a unifying thematic influence on artists in both genres, including Throbbing Gristle.

 

[Omni]

Cabaret Voltaire, a band considered similarly important to industrial music as Throbbing Gristle concurrently shared a record label and regularly performed live with Joy Division.

John Peel was also fond of both styles of music and helped both scenes flourish as an external influence by promoting bands in both styles through his radio program.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Early aggressive punk such as The Sex Pistols, proto-punk acts such as The Stooges, The Velvet Underground and John Peel's exposure of krautrock to UK audiences are considered primary influences both on post-punk and also the early industrial acts such as Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire.

Citations pls. I find it difficult to believe that The Stooges or even The Velvet Underground were more influential than earlier electronic music pioneers.

 

[Omni]

Where did I state anything of the sort? I cited them as a common influence of both genres, not the penultimate and only influence. Post-punk is less based around electronics than industrial, so why would I use that as a common major influence on both styles?

I have already illustrated in extreme clarity that the formative bands of both styles were generally from the same locale, same timeframe, often worked together, shared record labels, has instances of performers making both styles of music and were released and promoted through the same avenues to a single audience. They clearly both existed concurrently within the same scene as one another.

I noticed that you didn't find fault with the rest of the information provided, so you must find it agreeable.

 

[Omni]

This is an awesome CD that further showcases the close history of much of the music that we discussed. Throbbing Gristle in particular releases their music through their own label and don't appear on compilations without Genesis P-Orridge signing off on it either.

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Punk/release/446550

Either way, I'm totally done with this conversation as you can't explain away all of the obvious shared history of these types of music and have resorted to telling me that I'm saying things that never happened.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You said the aforementioned was a "primary" influence, while neglecting to mention other influences. But keep on denyin' girl.