What defines 'alternative' metal

[CiG]

Exactly.

 

[Omni]

Let us never forget that HBB tried to call black metal false metal on the pretense that he believes it is alternative metal and has backtracked repeatedly for like 5 pages straight.

Influence in music is usually dependent on how many people can hear your music. You can be the first person who does something, but if nobody hears your stuff, you were not influential. The Velvets were widely heard and influenced a lot of bands even though they did not do everything first. They were probably the first widely known alternative group.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Let us never forget that HBB tried to call black metal false metal on the pretense that he believes it is alternative metal and has backtracked repeatedly for like 5 pages straight.

How am I backtracking? You realized that I was exactly right to call it alternative music, and since you couldn't argue it wasn't, you instead decided to define alternative so widely as to make it a useless term.

 

[Omni]

Shut up already. This shit was old when you were wrong 5 pages ago.

I don't feel obligated to answer any questions that you ask me since you ignored all of mine during that conversation and instead told me that I said things that never happened.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You have backtracked several times now.

I would gladly hear from you how this is not clearly alternative music as it's clearly an attempt not to adhere to the mainstream conventions of rock music at the time and has a fully developed sound in line with what would be widely known as alternative music nowadays. This was released in 1967.

So are you saying that Burzum, for example, did adhere to the mainstream conventions of rock music at the time? Because if not, it logically follows that he would be alternative by your definition. Same goes for Black Sabbath tbqh.

Burzum does not have a sound in line with what is considered alternative music. If you want to use my argument against me, use my argument instead of ignoring it.

The second part of your statement is meaningless because it's already invalidated by the claim that alternative music is anything that doesn't fall into mainstream rock conventions.

In this conversation, you provided your definition of alternative music. I provided reason why your definition was overly broad and how it could be used to argue my exact point on Burzum. The second half of your argument was circular logic. Interestingly, you made an appeal to sound as significant, which you just recently contradicted. But before that, you then switch topics to argue how industrial is alternative music rather than explain how Burzum isn't.

Do you think Throbbing Gristle is alternative music? If so, why?

Probably because industrial music is part of that umbrella and shares a common element with other alternative genres.

How is industrial music part of that umbrella? What common element is shared?

It has origins in alternative rock music, notably noisy and experimental post-punk acts such as Pere Ubu, Wire, The Pop Group and others. Throbbing Gristle's earliest recordings are much like those bands in a lot of ways, as are their contemporaries, Cabaret Voltaire. Both bands have also flirted with more post-punk and new wave sounds during parts of their careers, under those names and as additional projects outside of them.

To clarify on that, I'm citing them as bands who have similarities with Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire because all of the bands have the same core influences and stylistic origins and all of them have been very influential on industrial music over time.

This is beside the point by now but in all honesty, if you want to make a case that Burzum has substantial outside influences, he clearly likes German electronic music and krautrock because his ambient tracks bear obvious similarities with them.

After this you spend a lot of time trying to associate Throbbing Gristle with those bands, even though I clearly demonstrated that their earliest recordings pre-dated most of the artists you mentioned, and that their artistic origins were not even rooted in rock music but performance art. You spend a ton of effort trying to link Throbbing Gristle to various rock/post-punk bands do to location or era, yet you never successfully demonstrated the sound value which you previously stated as important wrt alternative music in "[having] a fully developed sound in line with what would be widely known as alternative music nowadays". You then proceed to contradict yourself some more...

Where did I say post-punk influenced Thribbing Gristle? I said both industrial and post-punk share common influences and originated in the same scene.

When a little earlier you had said...

It has origins in alternative rock music, notably noisy and experimental post-punk acts such as Pere Ubu, Wire, The Pop Group and others. Throbbing Gristle's earliest recordings are much like those bands in a lot of ways, as are their contemporaries, Cabaret Voltaire. Both bands have also flirted with more post-punk and new wave sounds during parts of their careers, under those names and as additional projects outside of them.

Then you resort back to your Velvet Underground trump card, because if they're alternative, and if they influenced EVERYONE, then EVERYONE is alternative!

Early aggressive punk such as The Sex Pistols, proto-punk acts such as The Stooges, The Velvet Underground and John Peel's exposure of krautrock to UK audiences are considered primary influences both on post-punk and also the early industrial acts such as Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire. David Bowie was also a substantial influence on the image of performers in Throbbing Gristle and many post-punk and new wave artists.

And so again, how is Burzum not alternative music? Or Black Sabbath?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

How exactly aren't they from the same scene despite being from the same era and locale, performing together and often having musicians creating both genres of music?

Can you prove that they don't share influences and stylistic origins despite both of the main industrial forerunner groups either creating post-punk or being closely associated with post-punk acts?

Can you explain why most second-wave industrial acts cite experimental post-punk bands as influences on their sound?

You have avoided explaining these things throughout our conversation. You're really just being ignorant at this point because the link between these musical styles is well documented in books and interviews with musicians.

Are these the questions you're saying I haven't answered?

Answer to question 1:

Because anyone with Google and five seconds to kill could easily confirm that Throbbing Gristle hardly formed as a band at all, let alone from a musical scene that only took off years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COUM_Transmissions

I'm not talking about "second-wave" industrial acts. I wouldn't deny that later industrial acts took from a wide variety of influences. I'm denying that its origin has anything to do with a reasonable definition of "alternative music".

Answer to question 2: you're asking me to prove a negative, and you're making claims that I've already contested. See the following for an answer, a totally industrial recording from a year when post-punk was just barely a thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIS3T6j2PzU

Yeah, totally post-punk there bro.

Answer to question 3: irrelevant to my point. I don't know what "second-wave industrial acts" is supposed to mean, and I don't think it matters. If third-wave black metal band Deafheaven cites screamo as an influence, does that make second-wave black metal influenced by screamo? Why should I care that Ministry (going to assume they count as second-wave industrial) was influenced by post-punk, for example?

 

[RedStorm]

get rekt

 

[J.]

I care about this

 

[CiG]

If all these bands can be considered alternative by you, what is Metal in that context?
It seems that in your view, anything with non-Metal elements is not Metal, but Metal itself is made up of other styles of music.

This is a confusing debate tbh.

 

[J.]

Ive never seen someone discuss a subject that he despises as much as hbb talks about black metal.

Just get over it

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't consider all those bands alternative, that's my point. I don't care much about what constitutes alternative rock or not except to say that there is stuff clearly established within that general region which black metal (and no other metal sub-genre) takes after, and therefore black metal should be considered alternative metal.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

jesus get a job.

 

[The Ozzman]

I'm moving this shit to its own topic when I find a proper computer.

 

[Omni]

Move it to the Non-metal forum.

 

[The Ozzman]

That's not how you spell General Metal Discussion

 

[Satanstoenail]

Not much point in moving it now as it all winds up. But some of it has been quite entertaining. My highlights:

I don't have anything against Fenriz, but black metal is the one sub-genre where you can't take anything from its creators at face value. Since Quorthon it was built on bullshit and posturing, people denying influences, forcing shitty ideologies/manifestos into their music, trying to cultivate an image and consciously appear distinct from anyone else. The Norwegian scene was basically a bunch of misanthropes that probably dreamed of sucking the collective genitalia of New York arthouse types as they conspired in their shitty little record store about how to out-shock everyone else. If they were an American group they would have just gone Columbine instead. By and large, talentless try-hard losers and posers of the worst kind.

Oh, you mean the article that I posted after you didn't understand that alternative was a genre of music already after I stated that calling black metal alternative music was a bad way to describe its differences from other metal for that exact reason? That's literally what happened.

 

[RedStorm]

i might agree with HBB on some of that

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I consider most grunge to be "alternative metal". A lot of the early to mid 90's stuff from Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Nirvana etc were much heavier than the alternative rock that predated them.

Here is a quote from Sean Kinney(AiC) ...

"I mean, before we first came out there was no ‘grunge’, they hadn’t invented that word. Before they invented the word ‘grunge’ we were ‘alternative rock’ and ‘alternative metal’ and ‘metal’ and ‘rock’, and we didn’t give a shit whatever, we were a rock and roll band!."

 

[CF87]

Not that I care, but I cant ever understand what Hamburgerboy is talking about.

 

[The Butt]

That's because he never actually talks about anything.

I suspect he is a shut-in who constantly posts here with his dick in his hand.