Where do ideas of good and evil come from?

[Darth Kur]

......That's one of the main problems I have with Judeo-Christian belief. You can be a basically wholesome person of good character, altruistic, charitable, philanthropic, but simply because you don't want to lay down in servitude to God, you can't attain eternal reward. Whereas someone can be a complete bastard all their life, turn to the Lord just before they die and BOOM!, they're whisked up to Heaven with all the good people. If I were to believe in an all-powerful, forgiving god-being, I would believe that It would forgive those who were good and kind even if they didn't ask for it, but the Church doesn't seem to think that.

That is one of the major issues that made me find utter disgust with the x-tain religion. The other main one is in relation to this, where as people, like you say, live as good, kind people but are of some other major religion, whether it be Islam, Judaism, Hindi, ect, the very fact that they didn't accept the x-tain image of god and "jebus" then they would suffer eternally. Man, woman or child..don't matter....going to rot and fester in hell. Fuck that! That is the greatest crock of shit in the entire history on mankind. And, ironically, it seems to follow from the other religion's viewpoint. Although I'm not positive about the Hindu system's point of view on non-believers. I have not studied about their system all too much.

P.S. I'd about kill to get a 73 or 74 Aussie Ford Falcon like you've got in your avatar.

....and the problem with living a "good" life but not bowing before God is, then you sin in pride, its like not acknowledging that God is ruler over all things. you could be the greatest king ever lived, but if you take that greatness and put it equal or above the greatness of God, that doesn't fly with Christianity

Oh yes, and this is yet another issue that has always irked me. You must lower yourself and be "humble, meek, worthless and not worthy of "his" grace". The only thing that accomplishes is breeding a society of weak, defenseless pussies. The x-tain tenant of meekness goes against the very human nature of survival. Might makes right and survival of the fittest has brought our species ten's of thousands of years of evolution and progress. The only thing being mouse like will bring about is destruction.
Glen Benton said it best...."No lord shall stand before myself"!

 

[Goreripper]

P.S. I'd about kill to get a 73 or 74 Aussie Ford Falcon like you've got in your avatar.

It's actually the 78 XC Falcon from Mad Max. Shame I didn't know you a few years back, I could have sold you mine.

 

[unknown]

if this has been stated, I'm sorry...I didn't read through all of the responses. But the terms "good" and "evil" don't really mean anything. If you were born in seclusion where you had to kill animals for a living, and there was some documentary done on you, people would think you're 'evil' for murdering furry woodland creatures. The ideas of "good" and "evil" have, as others have stated, been bestowed upon us by society and tradition.

 

[speed]

if this has been stated, I'm sorry...I didn't read through all of the responses. But the terms "good" and "evil" don't really mean anything. If you were born in seclusion where you had to kill animals for a living, and there was some documentary done on you, people would think you're 'evil' for murdering furry woodland creatures. The ideas of "good" and "evil" have, as others have stated, been bestowed upon us by society and tradition.

Nice comment.

 

[Intoxicator]

and the problem with living a "good" life but not bowing before God is, then you sin in pride, its like not acknowledging that God is ruler over all things. you could be the greatest king ever lived, but if you take that greatness and put it equal or above the greatness of God, that doesn't fly with Christianity

Is this not why Lucifer was cast out of Heaven? Because he was proud? And why is it that God cannot forgive Lucifer? Because Lucifer is too proud to ask. My theory is that if indeed the Christian god is real and you die and go to Hell, you can still ask God to forgive you, because they say he will forgive anyone for anything as long as they ask. It's all a matter of pride.

And, wow, that sounds childish.

 

[Life Sucks]

Well, I'm not religious, so I see it from a different angle. On one level, morals are rational. I mean, why would you want to hurt or harm someone (assuming they didn't hurt or harm you), when you don't want anyone to hurt or harm you, and you know how bad it feels to be hurt or harmed? It makes complete rational sense. To me, "evil" people are those who choose to hurt or harm others for no reason, and very evil people actually derive pleasure from it. Sadists, to me, are the most evil people there are. They are scum. Universal moral codes were imposed on societies through religion, in an attempt to create order and harmony. Evil people would otherwise not follow any moral code, and go about hurting others as they pleased. Even though I am not religious, I do believe in some morals on a very basic level. I would never hurt anyone unless they hurt me, for instance. I don't subscribe to many of the other morals promoted by major religions, though. I didn't phrase this very well, but I didn't have much time. I still wanted to get my two cents in, though.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I mean, why would you want to hurt or harm someone (assuming they didn't hurt or harm you), when you don't want anyone to hurt or harm you, and you know how bad it feels to be hurt or harmed?

"Because some things are worth putting others in pain for - the whole is more important then the individual, and some individuals are better for the whole than other individuals". This is the definitive intelligent answer.

To me, "evil" people are those who choose to hurt or harm others for no reason

Nobody does anything for no reason.

and very evil people actually derive pleasure from it.

These people suck, but I don't moralise about it or throw around absolutes, I just note that they have probably had exceptional childhood issues or are mentally defective in some way, and are unlikely to be anything but counter-productive to the world.

 

[Mad_Griffith]

discuss.

My take -
It seems that the ideas humans have of good and evil are so very universal that it'd be foolish to deny their existence.
I have thought about it a great deal and the only conclusion that I can come to is that morality was endowed (or imposed, however you wanna look at it) by God, and that good and evil can be seen as how well we're serving the purpose for which we were created (which, as far as I can tell, is to love and serve God, and our fellow man).
I've spent many an hour trying to come up with a morality outside of God and it has come to naught.

I agree with you. But just a point remains unclear in what you affirm: do you think God preexhist to the imaginary of people or is it a consequence of their deep need of putting order to our chaotic (intended as a mix desperation, death, joy, and even the non-centrality of the selves in society - which slowly and silently leads people to desperation)? Or let's just put it this way: who is the creator for you? God or Man?

However, even after having answered to these, "It's just a point of view", (as Fate's Warning sang)...

 

[-Desecrated-]

I think most people have really touched base on where the idea of good and evil comes from in this thread, so I won't say much myself. I think morality has its basis in the 'Social Contract' myself. We make a necessary sacrifice of certain freedoms, in order to live a life in which we're not constantly looking over our shoulders. And it's a worthwhile sacrifice, I believe, so that we can live and realize our potential. Oh, but it holds back the strong from dominating the weak - how sad! We're going against the natural order of things! *rolls eyes until they fall out*

For those who wish to live in a primitive society in which natural selection is allowed to take its course without bounds, why stop there? From here on out, let's live our lives for the sole reason of reproducing, and when that's accomplished, let's die off at age 40-45 as it should be, biologically speaking. According to our relative metabolic rate and heartbeat rate, our life expectancy should be around the 40-45 age range, as is the case for the other great apes. And surely enough, without technology and medicine - that's how long we'd normally live. So, who wants to live for the sole purpose of reproducing? Any takers? What I'm trying to put across is that we should not just jump from a "this is how things are" argument and follow it with "so this is how things ought to be." We're not here to just accept everything and question nothing. We're animals with a natural capacity for reason. Let's accept that and not be so hesitant to use it. Every generation has its doomsday "we're heading down the wrong path" quacks. And for all it's worth - we're not extinct yet.

 

[-Desecrated-]

and some individuals are better for the whole than other individuals".

And on what basis do we make that argument? What makes an individual "valuable" - and better yet, whose interpretation should we accept? How do you go about implementing that in a political system?

When political theory is that removed from practical application - it's fucking meaningless.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Might makes right.

 

[-Desecrated-]

Might makes right.

I was waiting for that. *tips his hat*

 

[Kenneth R.]

Might makes right.

absurdly incorrect, but humanity has grown akin to that concept.

 

[no country for old wainds]

For those who don't know what the term means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right

 

[Kenneth R.]

your assumption that i'm not familiar with the term is also incorrect.

" but it is true that a society's view of right and wrong is determined, like its perspective on history, by those currently in power."

while it is likely that many members of our current society and those of the the past have been blinded by their rulers, there are those among us who do not set our morality after the ruling class. this quote is a generalizing statement and is blatantly wrong when taken on a case by case basis.

history, on the otherhand, i would agree defers to rulers and those in power to write.

 

[speed]

There was an interesting quote I read once that said something like: " All the great men have become great through what the common man would consider evil, and all the good men have never amounted to anything."

 

[Kenneth R.]

There was an interesting quote I read once that said something like: " All the great men have become great through what the common man would consider evil, and all the good men have never amounted to anything."

i'd like to see proof of that because it seems quite wrong.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I wasn't talking to you, it was a general explanation.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i know, but i found disagreement with it

 

[Demiurge]

absurdly incorrect, but humanity has grown akin to that concept.

You're living in a different world than the rest of us. The dominant values are the opposite of what you claim. No civilization has been so fundamentally egalitarian. The weak are sustained by nearly any means necessary, despite recent leftist complaints about the poor being discriminated against by the changed dietary pyramid. "Might = Right" is not the battlecry of our time.