I know this is just an opinion but I disagree. Prog is some of the bette music these days. Sure, the classics are the best, yes. BUT, look at the nasty electric, power punk crap out there... THAT LOWERS THE BAR. Prog is sometimes kind of low... but come on... tell me what is good these days?? I think that prog sounds a lot better than crappy stuff... like paramore, plain white tees, etc.
Which SX songs do you actually consider classical/neo-classical?
- Thread starter Chairman Kaga
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I know this is just an opinion but I disagree. Prog is some of the bette music these days. Sure, the classics are the best, yes. BUT, look at the nasty electric, power punk crap out there... THAT LOWERS THE BAR. Prog is sometimes kind of low... but come on... tell me what is good these days?? I think that prog sounds a lot better than crappy stuff... like paramore, plain white tees, etc.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Thing is, that's your personal opinion - which is all well and good. No problem.
But empirically speaking, there is no case to be made where one genre trumps another wholesale in the generation or composition of pieces.
But empirically speaking, there is no case to be made where one genre trumps another wholesale in the generation or composition of pieces.
Yes... but there are artists who are no doubt better than others as far as skill. Lady GaGa Verses Circle II Circle or any other of those bands... DUH! Justin beiber, hannah montanah, and the jobros... bleh! NOTHING compared to led zeppelin!!!?? come on! The classics were better no doubt.
Postulate
Have a nice day! :)
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Well I will agree that rhythms have gotten pretty crazy in recent history, which is part of the reason I enjoy listening to King Crimson and Symphony X. But come on, classical music is way more advanced as far as counterpoint, thematic development, timbre/orchestration, and very often in technical skill as well. And they didn't "need" a lot of instruments - there are countless classical pieces played as sonatas, solos, and concertos; you cannot limit classical music to late-18th century symphonies! There is so much more to it than that, and the tradition of western art music continues to this day in styles that are far more complex than anything rock has ever done! You want to see technically complex, look into integral serialism - composing those pieces are mental workouts, to say the least, and they incorporate almost inhumanly difficult timings and changes in dynamics! Besides, even when a lot of instruments were used, it was generally for good reason, not arbitrary or superfluous.
How many prog guitarists could play this? (And no I'm not saying I get this or like it, just making a point of how difficult it can get)
I like prog metal, but I just think its modern incarnations like Mastodon, Cynic, Opeth (sorry to the fans of them here), Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation and Between the Buried and Me suck. They're disjointed, and every phrase they play is replaceable with every other one. There's no direction, feeling, or accomplishment. (And this is coming form someone who loves technical music as much as anybody) The only bands that I believe have adopted well to the modern prog metal sound are Fates Warning, Sieges Even (R.I.P.) and Symphony X. The rest I could do without.
I respect your opinion but that is mine, and I still think the term "neo-classical" is misleading and thrown around way too freely, even though SX is a very talented group of guys and have some legitimate classical training through Pinnella and Romeo.
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Kenneth R.
Cináed
Well yes I already said abit about the actual term and interpretation of metal heads as to what neo-classical means. But there was a need to classify what Yngwie did, even though much of it was near direct lifts from Paganini and other ancient harmonic minor compositions. Im no classical study nor would I have been had I the ability to study, its OK but mostly grooveless
After the big heat that transpired here when I first came around and I had the gaul to suggest the current progressive metal bands were a modern version of classical vision.... I spent much time all day listening to our local classical station. What I found was classical is equally as redundant in itself... which is admittedly vast... as redundant as progressive metal has become. Classical is still very predictable in whats comming next and even the final endings are oh so cliche.
Back further to my first comment here - all classical IS NOT in the harmonic minor so to say for instance that Romeo is not composing or improvising in "classical" based theories pertaining to the harmonic minor does not mean the stuff is not layden with classical touches.
Further a statement such as "Playing part of a theme from a piece on an electric guitar does not make the song classical" as the only indication of "classical" inspiration in Symphony Xs work is preposturous.
If the progressive metals bands did non stop counterpoint we would be sick of it quicker than shit. Its one of the things that tires me of classical... wait for it... wait... hear it comes.... ah I knew they were gonna do that. IMO one of the most horrific butcher jobs of decent metal was the symphony with Metallica, you just knew they were going to do some silly A typical "classical" counterpoint next. My favorite now less that recent modern examples of counter point have been done in the later vocals of Savatage... "neo" classical by the metal term ? No... classical inspired ? No doubt... fails to meet the presumtious "high" standards of classical ? I'll take Wake of Megallan over anything by Mozart every day of the week.
Classical music was about invoking a vision thru audio sensory of a progression or regression of lifes events.... todays as well as past progressive music does the same exact thing. Metropolis is a shining example by the most hated band on the face of the earth.... bravo !
Just because through presumption some like to trash Dream Theater or name your next favorite progressive metal band to trash for their redundancy after a long career of not always matching their very best composition refer back a few paragraphs to where I said "classical" reeks of redundancy.
my bottom line is try to learn to just enjoy music and stop being little bitches about every little detail all the time........
I am still waiting to hear the amazingly profound compositions of all the great critics around this place... and I will NEVER tire from the wait either... cause I cant, that composition just aint comming so Ill stick with my aweful standbys and only listen to "classical" when I feel I have earned the right to be so blessed
Gawd, Im such a prickly basted... enjoy
After the big heat that transpired here when I first came around and I had the gaul to suggest the current progressive metal bands were a modern version of classical vision.... I spent much time all day listening to our local classical station. What I found was classical is equally as redundant in itself... which is admittedly vast... as redundant as progressive metal has become. Classical is still very predictable in whats comming next and even the final endings are oh so cliche.
Back further to my first comment here - all classical IS NOT in the harmonic minor so to say for instance that Romeo is not composing or improvising in "classical" based theories pertaining to the harmonic minor does not mean the stuff is not layden with classical touches.
Further a statement such as "Playing part of a theme from a piece on an electric guitar does not make the song classical" as the only indication of "classical" inspiration in Symphony Xs work is preposturous.
If the progressive metals bands did non stop counterpoint we would be sick of it quicker than shit. Its one of the things that tires me of classical... wait for it... wait... hear it comes.... ah I knew they were gonna do that. IMO one of the most horrific butcher jobs of decent metal was the symphony with Metallica, you just knew they were going to do some silly A typical "classical" counterpoint next. My favorite now less that recent modern examples of counter point have been done in the later vocals of Savatage... "neo" classical by the metal term ? No... classical inspired ? No doubt... fails to meet the presumtious "high" standards of classical ? I'll take Wake of Megallan over anything by Mozart every day of the week.
Classical music was about invoking a vision thru audio sensory of a progression or regression of lifes events.... todays as well as past progressive music does the same exact thing. Metropolis is a shining example by the most hated band on the face of the earth.... bravo !
Just because through presumption some like to trash Dream Theater or name your next favorite progressive metal band to trash for their redundancy after a long career of not always matching their very best composition refer back a few paragraphs to where I said "classical" reeks of redundancy.
my bottom line is try to learn to just enjoy music and stop being little bitches about every little detail all the time........
I am still waiting to hear the amazingly profound compositions of all the great critics around this place... and I will NEVER tire from the wait either... cause I cant, that composition just aint comming so Ill stick with my aweful standbys and only listen to "classical" when I feel I have earned the right to be so blessed
Gawd, Im such a prickly basted... enjoy
Postulate
Have a nice day! :)
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Okay, I will concede on every point except I still think you are very wrong when you say that classical music is as redundant as prog. Take any two renowned composers even in the same time period/movement and they will have very unique approaches to music. I have no problem with someone liking prog more, obviously, because music is entirely subjective, but being a composer of "classical" music is still a more rigorous and innovative process than being a rock songwriter, even a prog one.
This is part of the problem. Nowadays when people think of classical music, they only think of the most well-known works of first-tier composers and consider that to embody all of classical music, when nothing could be further from the truth! And the sheer arrogance of taking superficial aspects from just a couple composers (Paganini and Chopin being the most common for metal guitarists) in a vast and complex tradition and then slapping on the label "neo-classical?" It's totally irresponsible and misleading, almost like a culture rape.
I never said they had to use a harmonic minor to be considered classically influenced - in fact I have a very poor ear and usually don't notice modes like that from casual listening. But most so-called "classical" influence on metal IS just lifting melodies and modes form classical music while totally ignoring its complex foundations, which is what I am upset about.
Prog is not the new classical even though it features some very talented musicians oftentimes. And that is because rock is still a very young genre of music that needs time to develop and generally still uses very strophic song structures and counts as popular music, not "art" music. I appreciate that prog musicians (sometimes) try to push the envelope but the mislabeling is outright unfair.
This is part of the problem. Nowadays when people think of classical music, they only think of the most well-known works of first-tier composers and consider that to embody all of classical music, when nothing could be further from the truth! And the sheer arrogance of taking superficial aspects from just a couple composers (Paganini and Chopin being the most common for metal guitarists) in a vast and complex tradition and then slapping on the label "neo-classical?" It's totally irresponsible and misleading, almost like a culture rape.
I never said they had to use a harmonic minor to be considered classically influenced - in fact I have a very poor ear and usually don't notice modes like that from casual listening. But most so-called "classical" influence on metal IS just lifting melodies and modes form classical music while totally ignoring its complex foundations, which is what I am upset about.
Prog is not the new classical even though it features some very talented musicians oftentimes. And that is because rock is still a very young genre of music that needs time to develop and generally still uses very strophic song structures and counts as popular music, not "art" music. I appreciate that prog musicians (sometimes) try to push the envelope but the mislabeling is outright unfair.
Prismatic Sphere
We Carouse
I gotta say I agree with all of this, particularly the last sentence. Dream Theater just doesn't get it(at least not in this decade). It isn't about musicianship, it is about songwriting.
Have you heard SubSignal? It is one half of Siege's Even I believe. Their 2009 album "Beautiful & Monstrous" is quite good.
Dream Theater is just the easiest band to grab and trash for haters. They still hit the high spot from time to time.
I dont know prostulate that staions plays all kinds of composers, all kinds of stuff I nver heard before even watching ice skateing ... LOL With in a few days if not even the first I knew what was coming next.
In opposite to what you say I say the great progressive musicians recieve unfair credit for thier accomplishments against the "classis".
Useing theory and ideas that rubbed of from classical is not "lifting"
Progressive metal does base the music on painting a picture just as classical did but does it our way, thats the way of today, not the way of powered bighair wigs grown fat on blackbird pie
Key thing to remember before getting too twisted up about the use of the term neo-classical is to remember its neo-classical metal which puts it more in context, though I still dont like the idea that is has to be harmonic minor all the time like Yngwie to be neo-classical
Theres no missing the harmonic minor once you hear it and know what it sounds like
In a sense metal itself was a move closer to classical from conventional rock by adding the use of fuller scales, dark modes and intervals
Metal is less in harmonies than classical because chunking out heavily distorted fully harmonized chords does not work too good
Alot of classical pieces I have heard is the origional place driven pedaled "chunked out" chords can be heard then the protometal hardrock guys started to do it in some songs, they also occasionally used the sharped 5th and sharped 7th whichs adds a twisted sound that became very metal
It my understanding that many classical composers earned much of thier incomes and substanance by Kings, Queens and other wealthy lords and did not live the lifestyle of current touring musicians or need to capture the interest of a record label and draw fans. So its stands to reason that they could do extensive pieces as thats what the orchestra called for, not a 3 musical piece band (guitar, keyboard, bass) (guitar, guitar, bass)
Im sorry but I honestly believe if the classics heard some of this stuff many of these SMALL bands are doing today... providing they adjusted to distortion and wailing drums... they would be quite impressed... and I can see thier powered big hair bouncing up and down to the rhythm and I could easily see them enjoying the timing change ups, and "getting it" much more than the conventional metal head.
One of the crazyists ideas I could think of is that the last of mankind with high musical intellegence, creativity and application died off 200 years ago.
I dont know prostulate that staions plays all kinds of composers, all kinds of stuff I nver heard before even watching ice skateing ... LOL With in a few days if not even the first I knew what was coming next.
In opposite to what you say I say the great progressive musicians recieve unfair credit for thier accomplishments against the "classis".
Useing theory and ideas that rubbed of from classical is not "lifting"
Progressive metal does base the music on painting a picture just as classical did but does it our way, thats the way of today, not the way of powered bighair wigs grown fat on blackbird pie
Key thing to remember before getting too twisted up about the use of the term neo-classical is to remember its neo-classical metal which puts it more in context, though I still dont like the idea that is has to be harmonic minor all the time like Yngwie to be neo-classical
Theres no missing the harmonic minor once you hear it and know what it sounds like
In a sense metal itself was a move closer to classical from conventional rock by adding the use of fuller scales, dark modes and intervals
Metal is less in harmonies than classical because chunking out heavily distorted fully harmonized chords does not work too good
Alot of classical pieces I have heard is the origional place driven pedaled "chunked out" chords can be heard then the protometal hardrock guys started to do it in some songs, they also occasionally used the sharped 5th and sharped 7th whichs adds a twisted sound that became very metal
It my understanding that many classical composers earned much of thier incomes and substanance by Kings, Queens and other wealthy lords and did not live the lifestyle of current touring musicians or need to capture the interest of a record label and draw fans. So its stands to reason that they could do extensive pieces as thats what the orchestra called for, not a 3 musical piece band (guitar, keyboard, bass) (guitar, guitar, bass)
Im sorry but I honestly believe if the classics heard some of this stuff many of these SMALL bands are doing today... providing they adjusted to distortion and wailing drums... they would be quite impressed... and I can see thier powered big hair bouncing up and down to the rhythm and I could easily see them enjoying the timing change ups, and "getting it" much more than the conventional metal head.
One of the crazyists ideas I could think of is that the last of mankind with high musical intellegence, creativity and application died off 200 years ago.
Postulate
Have a nice day! :)
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Classical music didn't end 200 years ago, that is my whole point. The term classical can either mean the classical period, which is like 1750's on to the early 1800's or it could mean western art music in general, and classical music in the second sense is still going on today. So much has happened in classical music since the time period you are criticizing - romanticism, post-tonality, spectralism, serialism, aleatoric music, minimalism, electronic music (yes in the classical sense, classical composers pioneered the use of synthesizers, not German rock bands as some would have you believe), and so much more. That you keep criticizing classical music as if it were confined only to the symphonies of Mozart or Beethoven (which, even if it were, it would still be incredible) is indicative of exactly the problem I am talking about - that nobody cares about classical music's complex history and has no problem disregarding it! And the "neo-classical" label that rock guitarists use is a symptom of that!
OK sounds like your talking about contempary classical. What ever it sounds like you feel classical is the only intelligent, "complex history", artistic worthy music. I disregard classical music solely for that reason, the pompus BS that comes with it.. but wait isnt that the same reason you live to hate progressive metal ?
Now virtuoso guitarists are just rock guitarists ?
Would this make virtuoso violinists just rock violinists ? Or are they somehow more entitled ? Perhaps because some parent and instructor shoved a violin down their throat since they were 4 ?
Which reminds me of a earlier comment I let slide... that neo classical was applied to instrumental virtuoso guitarists... something along that lines but I never heard anyone call Satriani, Morse, Joe Pass or Eric Johnson neo-classical, yet they all had their moments of equal brilliance
Classical music was the music of its time for the wealthy. It delved into most musical possibilitys and total complexities (ring any bells ?). It has carried a tradition through that, I see it as nothing more.
Seems to me that there is just alot of things you wont let in the door.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
The misnomer Neoclassical is applied to rock and "prog" music that utilizes modes and arpeggios. Hardly classical, and nothing new. Not neoclassical in but a name misapplied by the masses who hope that it lends justification for their view that this kind of music is somehow more academic and more lasting.
Phanto
Alalalalalalalala.
what other options were there ? got a better rational classification that doesnt lump that in with everything else ? lets hear it
ABQShredHead
©1970
Thats a good point but Im wondering if they were useing that term shred in there in the 80's ?
I just remember guys saying it was neoclassical or neoclassical metal and once I heard it I understood why they refered to it that way but it did pretty much revolve around the improv. and other guitar work, I guess the keys too.
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