Who seriously can believe in bible?

[Norsemaiden]

If Christians do not get their guidance from the Bible then where do they get it from, and what makes it valid? Someone may as well make up any idea and call it Christianity. This does happen to some extent in that the Crusaders were obviously very different in their behaviour to the dictat by Christ that they should be "meek" and "weak in spirit". (We have to bear in mind that they couldn't read the bible and had no clue what it was all about). And there are plenty of rich people whose made up version of Christianity allows them to see wealth as virtue, usually because they occasionally give to a charity. Although Christ says you should give away all your possesions and that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I have heard Christians complain of how the Church (and various sects) twist the bible to suit their agendas, but not the reverse complaint that the bible is irrelevant because it is what the Church says that counts - except when Neith raised this as an objection to criticising the bible!

 

[کوڈانشی]

it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

thick rope: translation error

. arabic too uses the same root word for a hawser and a camel.

 

[Norsemaiden]

thick rope: translation error

. arabic too uses the same root word for a hawser and a camel.

There are quite a few translation errors in the bible aren't there? It makes much more sense that it is a thick rope, rather than a camel. Also when Mary is called a virgin, it is supposedly a translation error and should have just said "young woman".

 

[hypocrisy86]

I agree but i believe in some God that resembles the on in the bible kind of, i can't quite say in scientific terms but..

I believe God used the Big Bang to create the universe, and beyond.
And everything else came along one by one.

 

[کوڈانشی]

I believe God used the Big Bang to create the universe, and beyond.
And everything else came along one by one.

now that depends entirely on whether science considers ‘the big bang’ creation ex nihilo. it can certainly fit, and i’d tend towards that idea myself. as for your last comment, i want to ask: did these things come along one by one by themselves, or directly as a result of ﷲ (allah = god)’s intervention?

 

[proglodite]

If Christians do not get their guidance from the Bible then where do they get it from, and what makes it valid?

God.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Where, other than the bible does god express his wishes? Do you, or does anyone else talk to him and you follow the instructions given?!!

 

[proglodite]

Where, other than the bible does god express his wishes? Do you, or does anyone else talk to him and you follow the instructions given?!!

You will, of course, tear me apart over this one, but here we go: He communicates with different people in different ways, at different times. Personally, I have never heard a physically audible voice - most people never do. Most often for me it is through either a peace about a certain issue, or being troubled about an issue. This is generally referred to as the spiritual gift of wisdom, however this is different from what most regard 'wisdom' to be, so please don't think I'm trying to indicate that I am wise. Begin tearing.

 

[Cythraul]

Christianity is a crutch in the exact same way as the other diety-worshiping religions

So why do you consider the other deity-worshipping religions to be crutches? What gets you through life? Indifference? I really just don't see the big difference between using a religion as a guide for one's life and using any other thing for the same end.

 

[WNxScythe]

Where, other than the bible does god express his wishes? Do you, or does anyone else talk to him and you follow the instructions given?!!

Just to give proglodite some backup...

Apart from the bible, we (Christians) receive guidance through the holy spirit. Basically, when someone becomes a Christian, they are indwelt by the holy spirit, or 'possessed' (though unlike demonic possession, the holy spirit guides, but does not directly 'control' our actions). Until Jesus' transfiguration (ascension to heaven), Christians (and old testament Mosaic-period) Jews relied on the casting of lots to make decisions (a way of letting God control the process)... the last time this was done was when the disciples were trying to decide who to replace the (dead) Judas with.

How does the spirit guide us? Depends on the person... in Muslim cultures (where dreams are attributed far more importance than in the West) people have been known to have visions of Christ seemingly out of the blue. Some cases have been known of mountain sheperds and other remote people to come to the Lord with NO prior outside contact.

Personally, I pray alot about decisions, and ask God to guide my thoughts/actions so as to do his will, though sometimes he simply arranges circumstances so as to make only one possible choice.

By the way, as Christians grow nearer to God, they also generally more clearly see his will. Similarly, if a Christian falls into sin, their view becomes more clouded (I've experienced both myself). Sometimes, when I feel especially near to God, I'm filled with an almost indescribable, otherwordly sense of joy and peace. Quite amazing.

Norsemaiden, I encourage you to put aside your disdain and disbelief for just for just a moment. Ask God to prove to you he's out there to you. If he isn't you've lost nothing, if he is, you've truly gained all. It's a win-win situation.

Goodnight

 

[Silver Incubus]

So why do you consider the other deity-worshipping religions to be crutches? What gets you through life? Indifference? I really just don't see the big difference between using a religion as a guide for one's life and using any other thing for the same end.

How bout your brain.

 

[Cythraul]

How bout your brain.

Subscribing to normative constraints, rules, and certain ways of life does not preclude the use of one's brain, cocksucker. In fact, one could have perfectly good reasons (ascertained with the help of one's brain) to follow a given religion. And people do in fact do this. You tell me from where most people's moral intuitions, beliefs, values, etc. are derived. From their own goddamn selves? I highly doubt that's largely the case. And even if it was, it would not only be highly counterproductive but incoherent! If not from religion then from a secular basis? Sure, in a lot of cases, it would seem, but what is the goddamn difference between that and following a religion? The only difference, it seems to me, is a commitment to entities that you nor anybody else has disproven.

 

[Norsemaiden]

It is becoming abundantly clear why mental institutions are full of people who have crazy ideas about being told to do things by God, or believing that they are Jesus. I would not dare talk face to face with a Christian about religion now because they really SCARE me. God could suddenly tell them I'm the devil and they have to kill me or burn my house down.

In my degree course the lecturer told us about this Christian who lost his job and lost his mind from having to consult God on every minor decision. He took hours trying to figure out which pair of socks God approved him to put on in the morning! That is where that kind of insane thinking takes you.

Believing in one God is something that Muslims do too. If Christians are discarding their Bibles and say the Bible is irrelevant, it is love of God and God-to-human contact that you base your actions on, then what if Muslims did the same and said the Koran was irrelevant, only love of Allah and what he communicates to you in your head is what defines them as a Muslim? Then why would they even still need to call themselves Christian or Muslim? Would it even be a religion or just God-in-head awareness? The Yorkshire ripper, amongst other murderers said God told him to kill. Any murderers that say that (common in schizophrenics) have just as much validity to claim that as do any of the other Christians who say God tells them what to do. Everyone should take responsibility for their own actions. If I was God I would send everyone who worships me to hell!

 

[Norsemaiden]

How bout your brain.

Most people will never be able to use their brain alone to behave in a reasonable way. They look outside of themselves for rules and reasons to obey those rules.

According to Kohlberg's theory of moral development (derived from psychological research) following a code of behaviour which is enforced by threat of punishment (hell) or reward (heaven) is at the 1st, most primitive, level. The 6th level is the hardest level of morality to attain, and involves having your own sense of right and wrong, an internal sense of (to give a grosly oversimplified example) treating other people as you would feel it was fair to be treated were you in their position. This corresponds with using your brain.

Obeying a religion because it is tradition or a social expectation, is at level 3. Level 6 moral development follows no set code and is not religious - because it doesn't come from any conformity to external expectations. No one can grasp the meaning of a moral level higher than that which they are at.
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

 

[Cythraul]

It doesn't have to be a matter of following customs or traditions. One can simply find Christian morality or some other religiously-derived moral system plausible on independent grounds. Now it might be the case that a lot of people are in part motivated by considerations of tradition but I hardly think that's the only motivation. And as for this Kohlberg guy, he talks about level 6 involving some kind of universal moral principles. That's fine. But you, Norsemaiden, claim that this highest level of moral development involves your own sense of right and wrong. Given what Kohlberg sets out and what you're saying we have a straightforward contradiction on one understanding of it. But on another understanding, according to something else you said, this level of development involves not an acceptance of universal moral principles on the basis of tradition or anything else but on the basis of one's own insight into the humanity of other people, or simply a sense of empathy. That's fine but realize that it doesn't follow from this that the principles that people at level 6 act upon are any less universal as a result of the aforementioned considerations. Now my point is, there is a very real way that one can subscribe to a given religion and its moral tenets and at the very same time be on this level 6 thingy of moral development. It may just be the case that the reasons one might find the moral tenets of a given religion tenable come from that very sort of reasoning one develops at level 6.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Someone on level 6 might by cooincidence agree with some points from various religions (although this is questionable and there is no doubt that one sole religion would not be favoured exclusively) but the heaven and hell concept would be rejected because,by definition, being influenced by reward/punishment is level 1 morality. If the level 6 person just happened to agree with an idea in a religion, it would not be taken as instruction to them, but just as something they found agreeable.

I take issue with Kohlberg about level 6 being universal morality, as there is no real universal morality and if there were then it would be commonplace and therefore level 6 morality would generally be universally achievable. In fact level 6 morality, being rare and being something the majority can never understand, is actually quite likely to come into conflict with the values of the majority and even to be seen as immorality by them!

 

[proglodite]

God could suddenly tell them I'm the devil and they have to kill me or burn my house down.

You mean you're NOT the devil?j/k

 

[Norsemaiden]

You mean you're NOT the devil?j/k

Did I not just tell you that I'd send anyone who worships me to hell?!

 

[کوڈانشی]

Did I not just tell you that I'd send anyone who worships me to hell?!

u single by any chance!

seriously though, students of logic refer to what you described previously as ‘argumentum ad baculum’ — an appeal to force. it makes sense, too, that we need to live according to self–derived principles & ethics. who would you rather trust: someone who cares for people because they personally believe it a good thing to do? or someone who does so because they believe they’ll go to hell if they don’t? what if that person’s god told them that killing = good? would their morals & ethics suddenly change dramatically?

i can’t dismiss it so easily though. perhaps in a truly secular society people can separate morality from religion but in my community — muslim, though based in england — we grow up knowing that all these good things we learn about come from ﷲ (allah), so in my mind at least i cannot separate them, except in theory. even then it feels as though i’ve missed something when i do that!

 

[Silver Incubus]

Subscribing to normative constraints, rules, and certain ways of life does not preclude the use of one's brain, cocksucker. In fact, one could have perfectly good reasons (ascertained with the help of one's brain) to follow a given religion. And people do in fact do this. You tell me from where most people's moral intuitions, beliefs, values, etc. are derived. From their own goddamn selves? I highly doubt that's largely the case. And even if it was, it would not only be highly counterproductive but incoherent! If not from religion then from a secular basis? Sure, in a lot of cases, it would seem, but what is the goddamn difference between that and following a religion? The only difference, it seems to me, is a commitment to entities that you nor anybody else has disproven.

I'm sorry that you can't use your brain to think of the best results of your actions. That you can't grasp the concept that one could think how their decisions not only effect themselves but also how it will effect the people around them and choose based on the solution what to do.

I don't think people really need a book to tell them that they shouldn't steal, they know it is wrong if they consider the fact that if someone was stealing from them, they wouldn't like it much either.

The golden rule is the only one that matters everything else is a form of mental manipulation to control people. That is wrong, and that is evil, because forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is at a fundamental level wrong.