Who seriously can believe in bible?

[Demilich]

so i guess my question is: are all religions that make claims of higher powers equally fallacious?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

i'm trying to point out the fallacies inherent in each of all the judeo-christianity denominations

Well simply saying that the BOM says that Jesus was in America does not disprove it. A better way to disprove the BOM would be to point out the fact that there are over 400 direct qoutations or allusions to NT writings which weren't even written when the BOM books were supposedly written.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

so i guess my question is: are all religions that make claims of higher powers equally fallacious?

I have yet to find one that does not have some serious problem.

 

[Demilich]

so
why is there no text describing where Jesus was between 12 and 30???

there is! do your homework on this one, man. there many texts which discuss contradictory and often controversial descriptions of Jesus' life. they were simply not made part of the canon of Christian literature as were the texts in the Bible. these texts, canonical or otherwise, came from a common pool, and the process of selection undertaken by the church seems to indicate that they were trying to construct an image of jesus that upheld their values and ignored other stories of what he was like.

for example, many stories exist of a young Jesus behaving disrespectfully or even violently to others, including reprimanding a teacher who thought his knowledge exceeded that of Jesus.

religious studies ftw

 

[Thoth-Amon]

there is! do your homework on this one, man. there many texts which discuss contradictory and often controversial descriptions of Jesus' life. they were simply not made part of the canon of Christian literature as were the texts in the Bible. these texts, canonical or otherwise, came from a common pool, and the process of selection undertaken by the church seems to indicate that they were trying to construct an image of jesus that upheld their values and ignored other stories of what he was like.

for example, many stories exist of a young Jesus behaving disrespectfully or even violently to others, including reprimanding a teacher who thought his knowledge exceeded that of Jesus.

religious studies ftw

Good point, I wasn't thinking about apocryphal works. But yes you are essentially correct here, though the New Testament books are earlier than most of those other works (with a few exceptions). Hence I find them more historically believable while still highly embellished and containing numerous fictional and legendary material.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

there is! do your homework on this one, man. there many texts which discuss contradictory and often controversial descriptions of Jesus' life. they were simply not made part of the canon of Christian literature as were the texts in the Bible. these texts, canonical or otherwise, came from a common pool, and the process of selection undertaken by the church seems to indicate that they were trying to construct an image of jesus that upheld their values and ignored other stories of what he was like.

for example, many stories exist of a young Jesus behaving disrespectfully or even violently to others, including reprimanding a teacher who thought his knowledge exceeded that of Jesus.

religious studies ftw

are you refering to the books that were written in the ethiopian language???

 

[proglodite]

The Judeo-Christian deity? Why that one? Why not the Hindu deity or the Deist deity?

Because I have had no interaction with either of the others

Here we can determine whether or not these Churches are divinely inspired by God using a few simple tests.
1. Have they ever infallibly and officially proclaimed something that is demonstratably false?
2. Have they ever infallibly and officially proclaimed something that contradicts something they have previously infallibly and officially proclaimed?
3. Does their divinely inspried scriptures show evidence of human errors, contradictions, false prophecies, etc.?
4. Have these churches ever officially done or sanctioned something that contradicts their own morality?

Kindly tell how #3 is a test of divine inspiration...

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Because I have had no interaction with either of the others

-Interesting because millions of people on this earth swear that they do just as you swear you have interaction with the Judeo-Christian deity. Perhaps what all of you are experiencing is what you PERCEIVE to be your particular deity because you have been conditioned to interpret reality through the matrix of your particular beliefs.

Kindly tell how #3 is a test of divine inspiration

-So is God divinely inspiring the bible's writers to write lies, errors and falsehoods? Wow! What a great and all powerful God! Or isn't it more reasonable to believe that these problems exist in the bible just as they do in other religious texts because they are all the products of human imaginations.

 

[proglodite]

Perhaps what all of you are experiencing is what you PERCEIVE to be your particular deity because you have been conditioned to interpret reality through the matrix of your particular beliefs.

But this could be extended to suggest that everyone else has been conditioned to believe there is no God

So is God divinely inspiring the bible's writers to write lies, errors and falsehoods? Wow! What a great and all powerful God! Or isn't it more reasonable to believe that these problems exist in the bible just as they do in other religious texts because they are all the products of human imaginations.

What I was saying was, how is evidence of inaccuracies in the bible a test of whether christians are divinely inspired by God? I was not saying that God inspired those inaccuracies; I agree that they are caused by humans, but not through their imaginations, but merely becuase they are human.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

But this could be extended to suggest that everyone else has been conditioned to believe there is no God

-I totally agree with you here. In fact nowhere have I ever said God does not exist. And for the record I was not raised an atheist/skeptic or what have you, I was a devout Christian for 13 years.

What I was saying was, how is evidence of inaccuracies in the bible a test of whether christians are divinely inspired by God? I was not saying that God inspired those inaccuracies; I agree that they are caused by humans, but not through their imaginations, but merely becuase they are human.

-Here's the problem. 2 Tim. 3:16 says ALL scripture is inspired by God. Not some, but ALL, every verse even the ones that are clearly erroneous. Now if a scriptural verse has an error or a contradiction then by 2 Tim. 3:16's own description that verse is inspired by God, but how can an error be inspired by God?

 

[proglodite]

I was a devout Christian for 13 years.

May I ask, what led you to turn against what you previously held true?

Here's the problem. 2 Tim. 3:16 says ALL scripture is inspired by God. Not some, but ALL, every verse even the ones that are clearly erroneous. Now if a scriptural verse has an error or a contradiction then by 2 Tim. 3:16's own description that verse is inspired by God, but how can an error be inspired by God?

There is a subtle difference between God inspiring the writing of a text, that has inaccuracies in it; and God inspiring inaccuracies within a text. I consider my life inspired by God, but I still regularly make mistakes.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

May I ask, what led you to turn against what you previously held true?

-Well it's a long story but essentially all the same BS that's in other religions I found in Christianity. Let me put it this way: I was quick to point out errors in other religions but found myself having to defend or explain away these very same types of errors in my own. When I stepped back and honestly looked at the errors in the bible I recognized them for what they were errors and that's that.


There is a subtle difference between God inspiring the writing of a text, that has inaccuracies in it; and God inspiring inaccuracies within a text. I consider my life inspired by God, but I still regularly make mistakes.

-Yes but this brings up several problems. If you admit that there are human errors in the text how do you determine the errors from the divine inspiration? Are all the passages in the bible that talk about Jesus' deity also errors? Or the passages that Jesus rose from the dead can they also be human errors? You can see where this leads. And if you can't trust the bible in terms of things that can be tested (i.e. like history or science, etc.) how can you possibly trust it in areas that are not subject to testing (i.e. like Jesus deity or resurrection or other theological issues)? Really I think that the fundies are the only ones who are being completely honest when they insist upon innerancy, because once you allow errancy of some kind into the text then it leaves everything in question.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

One more thing: the errors in the bible do not simply cover errors of chronology or science or history. They also touch on theologically important issues and hence are not minor.

 

[proglodite]

Yes but this brings up several problems. If you admit that there are human errors in the text how do you determine the errors from the divine inspiration?

Through divine inspiration from God Which is how you would also determine whether a minister's sermon rings true - in fact the bible is just one method of God guiding his people, albeit the most studied and accepted one.

 

[Horus]

Umm..... This has been bothering me for a while now, but exactly what causes people to have "Religious experiences"? I've always believed it was people tricking their own minds into these feelings, convincing themselves so strongly that something's happening to them, that th rest of their body responds to it. Care to share your opinions?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Through divine inspiration from God Which is how you would also determine whether a minister's sermon rings true - in fact the bible is just one method of God guiding his people, albeit the most studied and accepted one.

Lame. You have all these different churches claiming to be spirit-filled or guided by the Holy Spirit and yet all contradicting each other on areas where God is supposedly inspiring them. Isn't it obvious that they are all just kidding themselves?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Umm..... This has been bothering me for a while now, but exactly what causes people to have "Religious experiences"? I've always believed it was people tricking their own minds into these feelings, convincing themselves so strongly that something's happening to them, that th rest of their body responds to it. Care to share your opinions?

Thanks. It happens all the time in numerous religions in the world.

 

[proglodite]

"Religious Experiences" (probably better called 'spiritual guidance') can come from either God, Satan, or - as Ptah suggested - one can be tricked by one's body/mind into believing such an event took place. Differentiating between the three is of utmost importance, and when people fail to do so correctly it can result in christians disagreeing on different aspects of christianity, as Thoth alluded to.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

Because no one thought to invent stories about Jesus for those years.

exactly

 

[Thoth-Amon]

"Religious Experiences" (probably better called 'spiritual guidance') can come from either God, Satan, or - as Ptah suggested - one can be tricked by one's body/mind into believing such an event took place. Differentiating between the three is of utmost importance, and when people fail to do so correctly it can result in christians disagreeing on different aspects of christianity, as Thoth alluded to.

Yes but you have all of these "spirit-filled" individuals who KNOW they are guided by God and yet coming to contradictory statements.