Why do Symphony X's key changes and time changes not sound forced?

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

With every other band I know, a lot of key changes and time changes sound forced, like they're being complex just for complexity's sake. But with Symphony X, every transition is just so smooth. I can't figure out why this is, but I can guess, and others can tell me if I'm right or not.

I assume the key changes have something to do with the relative keys and whatnot. Theory isn't my strong point, so I don't really know. Perhaps they change keys for the solos because MJR and P prefer certain keys to solo in?

With the time signatures I'm guessing Rullo's drumming has a lot to do with it. With a lot of Symphony X riffs, I can't even tell it's not in an even meter because the drumming transitions are so smooth.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

i think it basically boils down to them being good songwriters?

 

[PrgrsveMetalnChains]

Your absolutely right Beauregard, it's like a subtle thing I have noticed while listening to them but never really thought anything of it; guessing it is because they are just that good at what they do.

Still my favorite band by far; every now and then I'll get on a kick listening to someone else for awhile but I can always go back to S-X...they are just amazing. Just a lot more balls in what they do with their music as opposed to bands like Dream Theater and other Prog bands.. I love the chunkiness(?).

 

[1by4by9]

I've always wondered about that too. However I've found one abrupt key change to my taste so far and it's the chorus section of Set The World On Fire. On the other hand it's a real sudden shift and unexpectness is a way to make songs more interesting.

 

[batera]

I always have thought the same thing, how they sound so flowing and natural.

I sometimes recreationally compose music myself, and I sometimes I find myself with a pattern that just fits in an different time signature than 4/4; the idea simply came out that way. Other times, I think "this is a cool riff in 4/4, but I want this song to be proggy, so I'll just snip it up and stick in some extra fractions to make it 15/8!" or something. I think the latter is what happens with the very rough and unnatural sounding changes we hear in many other bands. Symphony X just writes good music and has the maturity to know when something really sounds better in a funky time signature, and when they should just leave it in 4/4 and not try to be proggy just for the sake of being proggy.

So, what Zach said.

With the time signatures I'm guessing Rullo's drumming has a lot to do with it. With a lot of Symphony X riffs, I can't even tell it's not in an even meter because the drumming transitions are so smooth.

I agree. Rullo is such a musical player and really knows how to play for the song. His odd-time grooves are seamless and infectious, for example in Communion and the Oracle, The Accolade, etc.

Walling did some good playing on TIO for that matter, but you can really tell how that album took a more mechanical turn than the others, in large part no doubt to the druming.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I think it comes down to what Zach said.

 

[Lucius Octavion]

Can you give an example of a part in a song? Maybe I can try to analyze it

 

[Postulate]

the transitions in dressed to kill, the sacrifice, premonition, etc. sound forced at some points

but yes it is rarer than most bands

 

[Wander]

Divine Wings flows amazingly well considering the time signatures used.

 

[Swabs]

i think it basically boils down to them being good songwriters?

Thread over

 

[razoredge]

Sure they are great song writers but I dont think they are the only band that flows through the seasons so nicely... sorry. I have heard "forced" progressive bands but they are those that came after and tried to base their music on the likes of DT or SX. I agree but disagree all the same

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

Obviously being good song-writers is the reason, but to answer how to actually do it is another thing.

I've been writing music for years, and I've come accross some ways to make odd time signatures sound less forced. Keeping a steady ride (high-hat, ride cymbal) in 4/4 overtop the odd time signature, creating a simple polyrhythm, helps a lot, and gives the listener something to follow (see: Absense of Light opening grooves). Another way, which is similar, is just the way certain notes are accented (which notes are chosen to be dominant). You can have certain instruments bleed through the bars, making it harder to tell where the bars start and end, and just creating an overall smooth listening experience. If everybody plays the bar strictly as it is, it can sound forced. It takes good writing to go beyond that. Another way, if you have odd time signatures changing regularily (i.e. 4/4, 7/8 and repeating) is to have the "cut off" part of the 7/8 bar (or added part if using a bar larger than 4/4) not always at the end of the riff, but somewhere in the middle of the bar, or ever the beginning. Most bands will have a 4/4 riff written, and just cut off the last 8th note every second bar. That's the easy way out.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[OfSinsAndShred]

I've always wondered about that too. However I've found one abrupt key change to my taste so far and it's the chorus section of Set The World On Fire. On the other hand it's a real sudden shift and unexpectness is a way to make songs more interesting.

Dude, I LOVE that key change. They build it up with the V chord (sorry, music nerd time, but I'll just leave it at that) and make it seem like they're going to play a huge chorus in D... and after holding it for a few measures, they start rocking in Db. I love it.

 

[SyXified]

There are several ways of setting up a key change in a way that makes it subtle. One is to utilize a chord that is relevant to both the old key and the new key to pivot on, or even varying a few notes to those of a new key before fully transitioning. Another is the use of secondary dominant chords, which generally tonicize the chord down a P5th. Symphony X doesn't do much of either of those, but still manage to make their key changes very seamless. Sometimes they accomplish it by changing key only a half step or whole step - the ear tends to accept those smaller intervals more readily. The other thing they do involves timing and placement - it is easier to change keys if you are at a place in a song where the sense of where the resolution is is a bit lost. Usually if you have spent some time away from the I and V chords, and are not at the end of a phrase, you have some wiggle room to establish the tonic elsewhere.

For example, the key change after the first chorus of Fallen comes after a diminished run, which does not have strong tendencies towards a resolution. Then the modulation is only a half step - not into a register clearly departing from the old.

In Evolution, the second to last chorus modulates up a half step after a semi chromatic run, and a sustained E chord which is clearly not the tonic but also does not imply a resolution anywhere else. The tonal ambiguity and the small size of the modulation allow it to be seamless. After that first iteration, we modulate back down the half step, which is just barely enough to make that instance of the chorus sound unique (it doesn't feel like an obnoxious, typical double chorus repetition), and it's familiar from the earlier instances of the chorus so we accept it more readily. It is also a little more overt, but we are used to key changes in the last chorus, so that expectation makes you accept it more readily.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

^ I like it *claps*

Being a drummer, I took the rhythmic approach. Mixing that with your melodic approach provides some great compositional brewery!

 

[prman]

Hmm... Maybe it has something to do with fanboism?

 

[Kenneth R.]

Basically, it's because SX aren't Dream Theater or Nickelback, which I'm starting to suspect are in fact the same band.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Obviously being good song-writers is the reason, but to answer how to actually do it is another thing.

I've been writing music for years, and I've come accross some ways to make odd time signatures sound less forced. Keeping a steady ride (high-hat, ride cymbal) in 4/4 overtop the odd time signature, creating a simple polyrhythm, helps a lot, and gives the listener something to follow (see: Absense of Light opening grooves). Another way, which is similar, is just the way certain notes are accented (which notes are chosen to be dominant). You can have certain instruments bleed through the bars, making it harder to tell where the bars start and end, and just creating an overall smooth listening experience. If everybody plays the bar strictly as it is, it can sound forced. It takes good writing to go beyond that. Another way, if you have odd time signatures changing regularily (i.e. 4/4, 7/8 and repeating) is to have the "cut off" part of the 7/8 bar (or added part if using a bar larger than 4/4) not always at the end of the riff, but somewhere in the middle of the bar, or ever the beginning. Most bands will have a 4/4 riff written, and just cut off the last 8th note every second bar. That's the easy way out.

Hope this makes sense.

There are several ways of setting up a key change in a way that makes it subtle. One is to utilize a chord that is relevant to both the old key and the new key to pivot on, or even varying a few notes to those of a new key before fully transitioning. Another is the use of secondary dominant chords, which generally tonicize the chord down a P5th. Symphony X doesn't do much of either of those, but still manage to make their key changes very seamless. Sometimes they accomplish it by changing key only a half step or whole step - the ear tends to accept those smaller intervals more readily. The other thing they do involves timing and placement - it is easier to change keys if you are at a place in a song where the sense of where the resolution is is a bit lost. Usually if you have spent some time away from the I and V chords, and are not at the end of a phrase, you have some wiggle room to establish the tonic elsewhere.

For example, the key change after the first chorus of Fallen comes after a diminished run, which does not have strong tendencies towards a resolution. Then the modulation is only a half step - not into a register clearly departing from the old.

In Evolution, the second to last chorus modulates up a half step after a semi chromatic run, and a sustained E chord which is clearly not the tonic but also does not imply a resolution anywhere else. The tonal ambiguity and the small size of the modulation allow it to be seamless. After that first iteration, we modulate back down the half step, which is just barely enough to make that instance of the chorus sound unique (it doesn't feel like an obnoxious, typical double chorus repetition), and it's familiar from the earlier instances of the chorus so we accept it more readily. It is also a little more overt, but we are used to key changes in the last chorus, so that expectation makes you accept it more readily.

Very good explanations! It's great to hear two different views on the subject.

 

[Meedleyx10]

Basically, it's because SX aren't Dream Theater or Nickelback, which I'm starting to suspect are in fact the same band.

Both our preferences aside...that's not even a good dig.

 

[schenkadere]

i think it basically boils down to them being good songwriters?

That's it exactly.