Womanizing, Mysogyny and Libertinism.

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Sedition and "Pockets" between my tits and stomach

Claire

 

[Sophii]

 

[Bloopy]

The culture of metal is not very welcoming to women, and the two years of incel loser talk chronicled and preserved in this thread highlight why this remains so.

Most of the thread is a bible basher having a cry that metal isn't the exact way he wants it.

I'd say the culture of metal is quite diverse and can't be written off all at once like that. You'll come across people who aren't very welcoming, but also people who are totally chilled out and friendly to anyone. Playing in bands is a less welcoming experience for women, but it depends as some parts of the metal scene are way more used to seeing women play in bands than others. Some of the shitty comments they get are from non-metalheads - either supposed friends or just random people who happened to see their band.

 

[CiG]

Blatant alt account mate.

 

[Bloopy]

Blatant alt account mate.

Have you ever seen an alt account go to the effort of posting a fly fishing backstory on the Encyclopaedia Metallum forum before?

 

[CiG]

Have you ever seen an alt account go to the effort of posting a fly fishing backstory on the Encyclopaedia Metallum forum before?

Thanks for the tip, this is HILARIOUS shit.

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

Most of the thread is a bible basher having a cry that metal isn't the exact way he wants it.

I'd say the culture of metal is quite diverse and can't be written off all at once like that. You'll come across people who aren't very welcoming, but also people who are totally chilled out and friendly to anyone. Playing in bands is a less welcoming experience for women, but it depends as some parts of the metal scene are way more used to seeing women play in bands than others. Some of the shitty comments they get are from non-metalheads - either supposed friends or just random people who happened to see their band.

I understand the breath and depth of metal as a culture—I've been embedded in it for 25 years or more. Because of the nature of the path I've walked, I've seen the culture from the inside, as part of the assumed and always centered "majority," and I've seen it from the outside, as someone who is perceived, by the nature of who I am and how I move about in the world, as a tourist until proven otherwise (if not an outright threat or social trojan horse). Trust me when I say I have a history in this community (even this specific manifestation of community—this will date me, but I remember these forums before Metal Age acquired the domain), and my observations are drawn from that long and ongoing experience, not from a quick jog around an internet messageboard circa January 2020.

What I would like is for you to take a moment to think about a question:

How many unwelcoming people does it take to make a cultural or physical space unwelcoming?

The reason I'm asking you to think on this is because you're forwarding a line of reasoning that crops up in almost any discussion of the inclusion and experiences of minority or marginalized people, particularly in contexts where those concerns are rarely or never centered in the life of the community. For the sake of convenience, we'll call it the, "bad apple" thesis. Basically, the idea is that the concerns of the folks at the margins are in some sense unjustified, or at least overblown, because those concerns are really only generated by a tiny minority of "bad apples," over which the community as a whole has no real control. In this view, concerns about the inclusion and treatment of minority/marginalized folks are unfair or lacking in nuance because they ignore the views and behavior of the bulk of the community in favor of foregrounding the problematic behavior of a small group of "bad apples."

I understand and sympathize with this view. No one wants to be tarred with the stain of the behavior of a handful of assholes over whom they exercise no effective control. No one wants to be assumed to possess noxious views just because some dipshit they wish would vanish holds those views and affiliates with the same cultural niche. That reaction understandable. It is unremarkable and not in any way out of the norm or inherently unreasonable. I get it. I really do. I've advanced those sorts of arguments myself in the past.

But here's the thing; I was wrong to promote that line of reasoning. I was wrong because the "bad apple" thesis fundamentally mischaracterizes the practical mechanics of lived experience. The problem is it doesn't take uniform opposition to one's inclusion in a community to make that community practically unwelcoming. It doesn't require a majority, or a substantial plurality or really much at all, depending on the scale of the "space." It only takes a couple of persistent, unchecked assholes to make a show or a social media/forum ecosystem a continuously exhausting or threatening experience. If its the right sort of asshole engaging in the right sort of assholery (eg rape or doxxing), it only takes one and the community reaction may easily be rendered moot by the intensity of the negative experience.

Making a community that is inclusive of and works for all its members isn't magic, and it doesn't happen by osmosis. Inclusion is a dynamic process, a collective and intentional act. It means deliberately centering the voices of the folks on the margins to make sure those voices actually get heard. It means proactively rooting out problematic views before they become problematic behavior. It means drawing hard lines about behavior, and enforcing them with social exile if need be. These are steps that the metal community, as a whole, has not really committed itself to making, and, as a result, it is often practically unwelcoming to women, racial minorities etc., even if the vast preponderance of individual heshers are and always have been good, decent, tolerant people.

 

[CiG]

When your community is made up mostly by social outsiders, it follows that said community will not function the same way polite society functions. You will encounter people who do not respect or even understand boundaries, or decorum, or manners. This is notoriously a problem in gaming communities (the ones that form organically as opposed to the ones created by corporations and constrained by guidelines).

The oft proposed solution to this, a community wide ostracization of problematic members, can only really work in situations wherein communitarianism is viable. Situations that are tight-knit in nature to be clear here. Trying to govern myriad communities across the globe of varying sizes is like a stateless country being ruled by a single governing body. It just doesn't work, and it works less and less so as the size of the country expands. Add to that the inherent nature of people to disagree with each other, you already run into the problem of what is or isn't a justification for said ostracization.

Do we ostracize murderers? Nazis and communists? Sexual harassers? Artists discovered to have donated to political parties and figures we dislike? People of faith? The purity spiral begins and where does it end? It's entirely operated on the level of personal biases, situations like these are only ever broached by electing a leader to make final decisions. These are all the functions of polite society, something that subcultures often form in opposition to.

Why not simply join a bowling team or a darts club if you want something with such rigid structure, membership and codes of conduct? I wouldn't consider myself a member of the oft mentioned "metal brotherhood" and in most cases I reject collectivism, especially where art is concerned. Individualism is paramount. But I do sympathize with a vague notion of eradicating problematic elements in a community. Ultimately I think so-called minorities won't be made stronger by a whole community shoving them into the center to be amplified and arguably, coddled.

Other than to simply be left alone by others, what more could a racial minority, a woman or a transgendered individual have to say to a whole community? Are there demands or something? I can absolutely get on board with disabled people asking for better facilities at venues, but what could a lesbian possibly have to say to anybody other than just to be left alone as any individual desires?

 

[Bloopy]

Even in one city the entirety of the metal scene doesn't exist in one room that immediately gets categorised as either welcoming or unwelcoming. There are different factions of metal (at the level of local shows where it's different circles of friends who support each other's bands). I can't speak for what it's like anywhere else, but here I'd say the culture of most of those factions here is very welcoming to women. Maybe the assholes spoken of have quite a narrow taste here. This could be an ongoing study as we post about what we observe in 2020...

As for social media... several sites I visit have a lot of shitty political views being spouted even though they're primarily music/software/sports forums etc. I don't participate in any Facebook groups for other genres, but the local punk forum here was basically a cesspool of cyberbullying for years. So I don't draw many conclusions about the "culture of metal" just because some of the assholes in the world happen to bring their shit to metal groups. Local metalheads here don't argue anything like they used to though. The assholes come out of the woodwork to have a cry when a borderline white power musician's tour is cancelled, but that's about it.

 

[CiG]

The very idea of whether something is or isn't "welcoming to women" is subjective, and differs greatly from woman to woman. It's absurd from the get-go.

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

When your community is made up mostly by social outsiders, it follows that said community will not function the same way polite society functions. You will encounter people who do not respect or even understand boundaries, or decorum, or manners. This is notoriously a problem in gaming communities (the ones that form organically as opposed to the ones created by corporations and constrained by guidelines).

I understand that we're dealing with the peculiarities of an outsider culture, and I sympathize with the view that there are just inevitable social dysfunctions that accompany that (because there are). That said, I've been a part of several other outsider communities where that dysfunction didn't manifest itself in the Lord of the Flies shit that often crops up in metal and geek subcultures. I've also seen local metal scenes and online spaces that weren't plagued with toxicity precisely because they were aggressively and internally policed to root out shitheads, so I know it can be done.

The oft proposed solution to this, a community wide ostracization of problematic members, can only really work in situations wherein communitarianism is viable. Situations that are tight-knit in nature to be clear here. Trying to govern myriad communities across the globe of varying sizes is like a stateless country being ruled by a single governing body. It just doesn't work, and it works less and less so as the size of the country expands. Add to that the inherent nature of people to disagree with each other, you already run into the problem of what is or isn't a justification for said ostracization.

The metal community managed to keep this music alive, under capitalism, during the long years of commercial purgatory. I think it can see its way clear to dump the psychos and predators. In any event this is one of those, "think globally, act locally," situations. We can take charge of our local scenes. We can take charge of our online spaces. We don't have to be prisoners of passivity, nor do we need to go in with the assumption that only a perfect implementation is worthwhile.

Do we ostracize murderers? Nazis and communists? Sexual harassers? Artists discovered to have donated to political parties and figures we dislike? People of faith? The purity spiral begins and where does it end? It's entirely operated on the level of personal biases, situations like these are only ever broached by electing a leader to make final decisions. These are all the functions of polite society, something that subcultures often form in opposition to

There's a reason the slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Have you ever seen an alt account go to the effort of posting a fly fishing backstory on the Encyclopaedia Metallum forum before?

posting numerous pictures and providing some kind of "backstory" doesn't prove anything. jonmni posted pictures and gave "backstories" on TWO DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS(talos and his main). When will you guys learn??? This sedition dude clearly has scorned crowd tendencies.

 

[CiG]

I understand that we're dealing with the peculiarities of an outsider culture, and I sympathize with the view that there are just inevitable social dysfunctions that accompany that (because there are). That said, I've been a part of several other outsider communities where that dysfunction didn't manifest itself in the Lord of the Flies shit that often crops up in metal and geek subcultures. I've also seen local metal scenes and online spaces that weren't plagued with toxicity precisely because they were aggressively and internally policed to root out shitheads, so I know it can be done.

Can be done and should be done are quite different. The fundamental problem with people who become police is human imperfection itself being put in a position of power over the human imperfections of others, and now the community police are insulated against the rules they themselves impose. We see this in anti-hierarchical movements like AntiFa where in absence of definitive leaders, community police pop up and abuse their powers. Tight-knit communities cleaning house so-to-speak is nothing new, and I'm not necessarily against it. Small communities will live and die because of the actions or inaction of their membership.

The metal community managed to keep this music alive, under capitalism, during the long years of commercial purgatory. I think it can see its way clear to dump the psychos and predators. In any event this is one of those, "think globally, act locally," situations. We can take charge of our local scenes. We can take charge of our online spaces. We don't have to be prisoners of passivity, nor do we need to go in with the assumption that only a perfect implementation is worthwhile.

You say under capitalism as if it would have thrived under any of the alternative systems. On the contrary, capitalism allows for the kind of western over-abundance of wealth that leads to unnecessary expenditures like live music, home entertainment systems and physical media in the first place.

Perhaps I decide you're a psycho to be dumped? Perhaps I make it my mission to uncover all the dirt on you I can and have you ostracized? The problem with your policeman's ideology regarding communitarianism is that it only has personal value for you granted the community is policed by your standards, and not another's. Perhaps you convince me we need to do this, but seeing as I'm an individual with my own philosophy, standards, ideas and views, my first target is to deplatform all communists within the metal community.

What then?

There's a reason the slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

Continuum (brainfart) SSA fallacy usually requires a small step which is then assumed to lead to greater and greater unintended negative consequences. You're misapplying said fallacy here. Purity spirals are a phenomenon of systems and communities observed across many different organizations, we see it among progressives, we see it among white nationalists, we saw it under Stalinist regimes, we see it in metal bands with strong ideologies and so on.

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

Can be done and should be done are quite different. The fundamental problem with people who become police is human imperfection itself being put in a position of power over the human imperfections of others, and now the community police are insulated against the rules they themselves impose. We see this in anti-hierarchical movements like AntiFa where in absence of definitive leaders, community police pop up and abuse their powers. Tight-knit communities cleaning house so-to-speak is nothing new, and I'm not necessarily against it. Small communities will live and die because of the actions or inaction of their membership.

This is a hysterical overreaction. I'm saying that the metal community is under no obligation to allow dickheads to use the cover of the little corner of the world we've carved out to be dickheads, and we have the tools available to make that a reality. You're darkly warning of imagined apparatchiks run amok on the dubious example of a vision of Antifa that bears no relationship to reality, but does bear a passing resemblance to the caricature of Antifa popular in far right circles.

You say under capitalism as if it would have thrived under any of the alternative systems.

I say under capitalism to qualify the scale of the achievement under a system where there is no surer way to be #canceled than to stop being a profit center.

Perhaps I decide you're a psycho to be dumped? Perhaps I make it my mission to uncover all the dirt on you I can and have you ostracized? The problem with your policeman's ideology regarding communitarianism is that it only has personal value for you granted the community is policed by your standards, and not another's. Perhaps you convince me we need to do this, but seeing as I'm an individual with my own philosophy, standards, ideas and views, my first target is to deplatform all communists within the metal community.

What then?

So? The nazis already do that, hence the pearl clutching about SJWs infiltrating the scene.

SSA fallacy usually requires a small step which is then assumed to lead to greater and greater unintended negative consequences. You're misapplying said fallacy here.

You started with ostracizing murders and ended up asking whether it would be ok to run off religious believers in the same train of thought.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

who the fuck does this dude think he is? You havent carved out shit and definitely do not represent any of us.

Btw antifa are pretty much the definition of a homegrown terrorist organization. Only far left radicals see otherwise. Try going outside more and getting some fresh air, it might help clear things up for you.

"nazis"

i can tell this dude is going to be a cancer to the forum, a cancer that i am going to eradicate.

 

[CiG]

This is a hysterical overreaction. I'm saying that the metal community is under no obligation to allow dickheads to use the cover of the little corner of the world we've carved out to be dickheads, and we have the tools available to make that a reality. You're darkly warning of imagined apparatchiks run amok on the dubious example of a vision of Antifa that bears no relationship to reality, but does bear a passing resemblance to the caricature of Antifa popular in far right circles.

Testaments of ex-AntiFa members directly debunk your attempt to smear me here as far-right, itself a very hysterical rebuttal to my comment that will gain you no slack around here. There are many stories of members being micro-managed by self-appointed community police, you see it all the time in video footage when any AntiFa activist found engaging in civil discourse is discouraged and chewed out by some faceless member. The far-left are purveyors of callout culture, this is amplified tenfold among their own.

I've experienced this myself in the past, I can attest to it firsthand.

I say under capitalism to qualify the scale of the achievement under a system where there is no surer way to be #canceled than to stop being a profit center.

That's more complicated than you're making it out to be. For one, a lot of metal survives and thrives on the back of western hobby culture, and due to the flexibility of lifestyles in capitalist countries, many bands are formed by people with jobs, and are supported by fans with jobs. Musicians aren't really comparable to being a CEO of a failing corporation, or the owner of a failing small business.

So? The nazis already do that, hence the pearl clutching about SJWs infiltrating the scene.

As opposed to the pearl-clutching about "Nazis" in the scene? Both SJWs and Nazis are extreme, but perhaps loud, minorities in the metal community and they tend to only occupy the minds and concerns of activists and closet-authoritarians that want to control all others around them.

You started with ostracizing murders and ended up asking whether it would be ok to run off religious believers in the same train of thought.

Being obtuse? I was listing several key points of opposition among metalheads. Should a Christian or Muslim be ostracized in a black metal community etc. I wasn't suggesting a series of sloping examples. My fault for not being more clear in hindsight I suppose.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Nazis were socialists from Germany and they havent been around for over 50 years. There are no such thing as nazis today. It's a loaded word used by rabid leftists to label anyone who doesnt agree with their agendas. a nationalist? HES A NAZI. a chauvinist? HES A NAZI

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

Testaments of ex-AntiFa members directly debunk your attempt to smear me here as far-right

No one is smearing you as far-right. I am suggesting that your notions of what Antifa is and does originate in far-right talking points, not in reality.

There are many stories of members being micro-managed by self-appointed community police, you see it all the time in video footage when any AntiFa activist found engaging in civil discourse is discouraged and chewed out by some faceless member. The far-left are purveyors of callout culture, this is amplified tenfold among their own.

This is a weakness of some activist practices, but it hardly puts Antifa on the same footing as the folks they're organized against, which is equivalency you seem to be trying to draw. I've certainly seen callout culture go wrong, but the actual impact is so trivial as to be meaningless. Being called out isn't life destroying. It can feel pretty shitty, but it is often, in fact, an opportunity for growth and greater understanding. People with a deep seated terror of being called out either have a woefully inadequate sense of self or they're up to shit they know deserves to be called out.

That's more complicated than you're making it out to be. For one, a lot of metal survives and thrives on the back of western hobby culture, and due to the flexibility of lifestyles in capitalist countries, many bands are formed by people with jobs, and are supported by fans with jobs. Musicians aren't really comparable to being a CEO of a failing corporation, or the owner of a failing small business.

What do you think an indie record label is, per chance?

As opposed to the pearl-clutching about "Nazis" in the scene? Both SJWs and Nazis are extreme, but perhaps loud, minorities in the metal community and they tend to only occupy the minds and concerns of activists and closet-authoritarians that want to control all others around them.

The nazis in the scene have killed people. They promote ideas that existentially threaten others, including others in the metal community. Nazi labels and promoters are often fundraising arms for violent far-right orgs. "SJWs" twitter shame venue owners. There's still no equivalency here.

 

[CiG]

No one is smearing you as far-right. I am suggesting that your notions of what Antifa is and does originate in far-right talking points, not in reality.

You're wrong.

This is a weakness of some activist practices, but it hardly puts Antifa on the same footing as the folks they're organized against, which is equivalency you seem to be trying to draw. I've certainly seen callout culture go wrong, but the actual impact is so trivial as to be meaningless. Being called out isn't life destroying. It can feel pretty shitty, but it is often, in fact, an opportunity for growth and greater understanding. People with a deep seated terror of being called out either have a woefully inadequate sense of self or they're up to shit they know deserves to be called out.

Not sure what you're even arguing against now. I never once said AntiFa were "on the same footing as the folks they're organized against" and the equivalency you mention is entirely in your head. I merely used Antifa as an example because they're actively anti-hierarchical in terms of how they organize. It's a relevant comparison because there technically are no leaders in the metal community, yet there are members who place themselves in positions of community policing.

If callout culture is "so trivial as to be meaningless" why are you advocating for it to be done in metal communities in order to combat problematic elements within said community? You're contradicting yourself now.

What do you think an indie record label is, per chance?

A label that operates on a smaller scale obviously. Very few exist as the sole income of the person running them, and many have existed as a means for bands to self-release their music. It's not comparable, because they're usually hobbyist ventures taking advantage of people's ability to spend frivolously in capitalist countries.

The nazis in the scene have killed people. They promote ideas that existentially threaten others, including others in the metal community. Nazi labels and promoters are often fundraising arms for violent far-right orgs. "SJWs" twitter shame venue owners. There's still no equivalency here.

The problem with SJWs is that they like to expand the label of "Nazi" with zero accuracy, and then slander everybody around them with it like a puppy just learning how to pissmark its territory. Isolating and excluding "Nazis" who kill people is child's play, they've broken the law. It's an easy fix. Also how many of the men who sexually harass/molest/rape people in the metal community are "Nazis" let alone right-wing? How many harassers would fall into the SJW category or at the very least the liberal category?

Ranting about "Nazis" in muh scene is just optics for the politically motivated, in real world terms they're a non-existent presence and beneath consideration.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I never once said AntiFa were "on the same footing as the folks they're organized against"

yes, they are far worse.