Would you give up yourself to be happy?

[Silver Incubus]

Not really true . . . I don't want to be happy any more than I want to feel sorrow. Life should be in balance. Happiness is absolutely meaningless without sorrow. Neither are inherently "bad" or "good", rather, both are vital. Though actually, personally I'd prefer sorrow. You learn alot more in situations that cause pain than those that do not, they make you a greater, stronger person.

As much as sorrow may be a motivator to changing or learning, I know that psychologically speaking, you learn things better in a 'happier state of mind" like having fun. People who have teachers who make learning fun, get their students to learn quicker and more effectivly then those who's tone of voice and words create apathetic approaches to the subject to be learned, as one example.

I also find that people who learn from sorrow do it because that is what has worked for them, not because it is somehow better or more effective.

 

[Silver Incubus]

In response to the orignal post.

I have reason to believe that happiness stems from thoughts that you choose to think and the context in which you think about them, in either abstact or based on real events in your life. It is more effective to do things with a positive outlook and at the same time knowing that it can be or generate negative outcomes. No matter how advanced science can be, it will never actually predict the future, nor change the past. I find that for me, this context can be applied to many different facets of life.

A good example is death. You don't know when you or someone else are going to die, (except suicide), and once a person is dead, they cease to be, and nothing can change those facts.

For me, I find the teacher frame of mind creates good feelings and thus happiness in me. Being able to help someone else in life, to create some happiness or joy in them, gives you a sense of worth and accomplishment, as well as having a positive effect on someone elses life so that, they too can live in a more positively oriented mindset which will help them achieve things they like and enjoy.

People reach out to things like cults and drugs because they don't know how to create those good feelings themselves. They seek what they know they have inside them, and find it through external stimulus. Any form of cumpulsion is designed to create a good feeling through a stimulous. Its just that for some people, that stimulus is a harmful or negative stimulous that gives them the desired feeligns but cause great harm in doing so.

This is true when for any company. They don't sell products, they sell feelings, and anyone who is in a band should realize this as well. Most people don't simply like the music, but they like the feelings they get from the music and moments created in the show or on the album. I heard that last bit of information from a guy I saw a seminar from at Canadian music week. That guy showed bands how to create more revenue and better shows by creating moments in the songs, which boils down to selling feelings.

 

[The Devil's Steed]

what is the value of being who you are? why do you do anything you do if not towards some sort of better mood?

It's not as much the value of being who I am as that I enjoy the value of NOT being mindless and happy for no real reason as I would be in that situation. I suppose you could say that I'm choosing the lesser of two evils.

As for the second question, I fail to understand why everything a person does should be aimed at improving their mood.

 

[OldScratch]

Plenty of pessimism in this thread, that is sure. For clarification more in keeping with some later comments than the original premise...
I don't see "happiness" (at least in the context it is being discussed here) as a temporary or fleeting moment of joy, levity or physical pleasure. I was thinking more along the lines of contentment. One need not laugh all day like an idiot, or dance about spontaneously to be happy, I would think. It seems we are over-simplifying the happiness concept, or confusing it with a state of ignorant bliss, etc. While that too may make some "happy" I believe we are really talking about a sense of satisfaction or deeper contentment with one's lot.
There is a profound difference to me between silliness, merriment or superficial, giddy behavior and a true sense of happiness with life and existence.
I tend to be somewhat pessimistic myself...but I am not miserable because of it. I just adjust my expectations accordingly and do my best to avoid the never-ending disappoinments of life thereby. You would be surprised how generally happy one can be when their expectations are kept strategically low. But to each his own...

 

[Seditious]

It's not as much the value of being who I am as that I enjoy the value of NOT being mindless and happy for no real reason as I would be in that situation. I suppose you could say that I'm choosing the lesser of two evils..

happiness of course need not be an intentional state, unless you're unable of allowing yourself to experience non-intentional states. But do you want to be happy with good reason, or not even want to be happy, thus you need no 'real reason' anyway?

So I have to ask, why are you choosing to be you instead of be happy?
what have you gained which is better?
what is it you do which makes being you so much more valuable than being happy?
and why do you do what you do, why do you do anything?

As for the second question, I fail to understand why everything a person does should be aimed at improving their mood.

Ali ibn-Hazm said, "No one is moved to act, or resolved to speak a single word, who does not hope by means of this action or word to release anxiety from his spirit."

why did you post in the first place if you think what you do isn't aimed at happiness? what was your aim? why did you feel the need to speak? if you don't do things for happiness, why do you do them? I had never heard of you, I had no idea you existed, then you posted something your thought---why did you choose to post, did you think it would make you more miserable? did you think 'well I need to waste another 30 seconds of my life before I die, so I'll do this hoping that I don't feel good about it'?

 

[Seditious]

I was thinking more along the lines of contentment. .

as was I.

There is a profound difference to me between silliness, merriment or superficial, giddy behavior and a true sense of happiness with life and existence.

absolutely. in fact this is one point I strongly disagree with in the Objectivist philosophy.

I just adjust my expectations accordingly and do my best to avoid the never-ending disappoinments of life thereby. You would be surprised how generally happy one can be when their expectations are kept strategically low. But to each his own...

honestly, the only thing that surprises me is that this nugget of Stoic/Buddhist wisdom is so utterly neglected by the masses... something I intend to do my best to change in the coming years.

as much as I like debate, it's always nice to see a like mind about

 

[Silver Incubus]

After following this thread, I would actually like to know where some of you set your threshold for happiness, as in, what are the things that need to be there in order for you to decided that your happy, as in contentment.
Like oldscratch, I too keep my expectations very low for very much the same reasons but I also don't feel the need to limit myself as to what I can do and who I become. For me being strictly pessimistic doesn't work, yet being optimistic all the time isn't realistic to the things that can and will occur.

I know that for me the only things that I need to feel happy contentment are being around people who love/like me and people I can love/like back and being alive and relativly healthy(ie no terminal or life crippling illness).

So what does it take for you to become contented?

 

[The Devil's Steed]

happiness of course need not be an intentional state, unless you're unable of allowing yourself to experience non-intentional states. But do you want to be happy with good reason, or not even want to be happy, thus you need no 'real reason' anyway?

So I have to ask, why are you choosing to be you instead of be happy?
what have you gained which is better?
what is it you do which makes being you so much more valuable than being happy?
and why do you do what you do, why do you do anything?





Ali ibn-Hazm said, "No one is moved to act, or resolved to speak a single word, who does not hope by means of this action or word to release anxiety from his spirit."

why did you post in the first place if you think what you do isn't aimed at happiness? what was your aim? why did you feel the need to speak? if you don't do things for happiness, why do you do them? I had never heard of you, I had no idea you existed, then you posted something your thought---why did you choose to post, did you think it would make you more miserable? did you think 'well I need to waste another 30 seconds of my life before I die, so I'll do this hoping that I don't feel good about it'?

Interesting grilling I'm getting.

I do not have an alternative to 'being me' to be blunt about it. I know what would bring happiness (aside from the original premise of the thread), however, it's something that will most likely be unattainable. But, given the chance, I would seek it. I simply wouldn't want to become a mindless moron as the original premise seems to state for the sake of being happy. I don't know how much more clear I can make this.

Why did I post? It asked for a response and I saw no clause that said 'Only respond if you're a person that frequently attempts to seek out happiness within life,' so I felt that I was free to respond. Is hyperbole your intention? Just because I don't actively seek happiness (primarily because what would provide it is something that can't actively be sought all the time, at least not with any expectation of success) doesn't mean I actively seek out misery. I simply don't think in terms of 'Not being able to achieve happiness = everything is meaningless' which you seem to imply.


I haven't posted here in months, I simply tend to lurk once in a while. This is why you haven't seen me before. Quite frankly, I don't see why my posting here disturbs you so much.

 

[The Devil's Steed]

Plenty of pessimism in this thread, that is sure. For clarification more in keeping with some later comments than the original premise...
I don't see "happiness" (at least in the context it is being discussed here) as a temporary or fleeting moment of joy, levity or physical pleasure. I was thinking more along the lines of contentment. One need not laugh all day like an idiot, or dance about spontaneously to be happy, I would think. It seems we are over-simplifying the happiness concept, or confusing it with a state of ignorant bliss, etc. While that too may make some "happy" I believe we are really talking about a sense of satisfaction or deeper contentment with one's lot.
There is a profound difference to me between silliness, merriment or superficial, giddy behavior and a true sense of happiness with life and existence.
I tend to be somewhat pessimistic myself...but I am not miserable because of it. I just adjust my expectations accordingly and do my best to avoid the never-ending disappoinments of life thereby. You would be surprised how generally happy one can be when their expectations are kept strategically low. But to each his own...

Actually, I generally agree with this. One doesn't need to be a loopy moron with no brain to achieve happiness, however, the original premise of the thread seemed to be that you had to give up your mind to enjoy that sense of happiness. I was speaking in response to that; I'm not anywhere near pessimistic enough to believe that happiness can come ONLY from being a moron. Different people have different standards for what they require for happiness, of course, so some will set the bar higher than others. When it comes to moments of happiness I tend to set the bar rather low (actually, I set the bar pretty low in general with a few exceptions), however, there is of course a difference between finding moments of happiness here and there and finding a long lasting sense of contentment. That's where my bar is -- by necessity -- set high.

 

[speed]

Interesting grilling I'm getting.


Why did I post? It asked for a response and I saw no clause that said 'Only respond if you're a person that frequently attempts to seek out happiness within life,' so I felt that I was free to respond. Is hyperbole your intention? Just because I don't actively seek happiness (primarily because what would provide it is something that can't actively be sought all the time, at least not with any expectation of success) doesn't mean I actively seek out misery. I simply don't think in terms of 'Not being able to achieve happiness = everything is meaningless' which you seem to imply.


I haven't posted here in months, I simply tend to lurk once in a while. This is why you haven't seen me before. Quite frankly, I don't see why my posting here disturbs you so much.

I dont see why you guys are getting into such an argument with such a loosely evolved thread.

Some months ago there was another thread about happiness, that dealt with the very concept of happness itself: http://ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249614&highlight=happiness

 

[The Devil's Steed]

I don't understand either, really. I'll take a look at that thread, thanks.

 

[Seditious]

I do not have an alternative to 'being me' to be blunt about it. I know what would bring happiness (aside from the original premise of the thread), however, it's something that will most likely be unattainable. But, given the chance, I would seek it. I simply wouldn't want to become a mindless moron as the original premise seems to state for the sake of being happy. I don't know how much more clear I can make this.

exactly. no matter what you give up, there is no alternative to being you, so why do you value so much about yourself that you wouldn't give up for happiness? what ends does that part of you you dont want to give up reach which is better than happiness?

you entirely avoided my questions which would have you elucidate your position.

Why did I post? It asked for a response and I saw no clause that said 'Only respond if you're a person that frequently attempts to seek out happiness within life,' so I felt that I was free to respond.

it seems you're misunderstanding my inquiry and taking things all too personally.

of course you're free to post, plenty of others have seen this thread and not felt the need to post though---why did you post, or if that's too direct for you to understand it without misinterpreting it---on your theory that people don't do things for happiness, why do you think other people posted, if not looking to, as Ali ibn-Hazm said, "release anxiety from his spirit"?

 

[Seditious]

Actually, I generally agree with this. One doesn't need to be a loopy moron with no brain to achieve happiness, however, the original premise of the thread seemed to be that you had to give up your mind to enjoy that sense of happiness.

how does give up your personality mean give up your mind? (like i said, being brainwashed out of your general identity, but obviously you're still a thinking thing). you can't experience happiness without mind, so it seems you have grossly misunderstood the thread.

 

[The Devil's Steed]

You were taking a (seemingly) rather agressive approach and seemed rather 'personal' about it. Sorry if we had a misunderstanding.

What is it I don't want to give up? My personality in general, I suppose. My intelligence, (some) of my experiences in life, my ability to help people with psychological issues which is a result of the ones I've dealt with, also. To be happy (assuming I can't find the happiness I mentioned earlier that didn't involve brainwashing) I would have to give up all of this. There's a line between having a mind that functions on a rudimentary basis and can be happy and actually have a well working mind, the thread seemed to imply that you would be brainwashed into the former state.

I posted simply because I felt like stating my view on the subject. What more do you need to know?

Also, am I correct in assuming that you place a very high value on happiness? I'm not sure if this is the case or if you're simply looking for information to help explain my views to you. If so, why do you personally place such a high emphasis on it? I'm curious about that.

 

[Seditious]

What is it I don't want to give up? My personality in general, I suppose. My intelligence, (some) of my experiences in life, my ability to help people with psychological issues which is a result of the ones I've dealt with, also. .

right right, so that's what I'm curious about. Why do you want your personality, why do you value your intelligence? some of the experiences you've had, what is it you want to keep them for? is there some 'good' in keeping them? Why do you want to be able to help others? To me it seems intelligence and experience etc. are means to being happier, what else are they good for? so if you had the choice of eternal happiness, what would you be losing but that which you need for achieving that which you're already getting... you see? that's why I used the fire analogy n shit in the first post.

Also, am I correct in assuming that you place a very high value on happiness? I'm not sure if this is the case or if you're simply looking for information to help explain my views to you.

yes. in my philosophy it is the highest good (not to be confused wiith Hedonism, which is wrong either way--whether it neglected happiness to say pleasure is the highest good, or whether it conflated pleasure and happiness, making happiness no higher good than pleasure). Everywhere I turn philosophers have agreed it is that which all human beings seek, and here you're suggesting it isn't, so I am naturally curious and trying to express my curiousity in as many forms as I can to understand where you're coming from.

why do you personally place such a high emphasis on it? I'm curious about that.

because it is the highest good. anything anyone has ever argued was a higher good either does not exist or is merely a means or an instrumental good to the higher good of happiness.

 

[judas69]

Maybe about a decade ago or so I was in my room meditating, trying to see how relaxed I could get when I found myself in what felt like an infinity of darkness. I could literally feel the depth around me; it was incredibly peaceful. I felt no motivation, no emotion of any kind, just an awareness of being this single point of light in an infinity of nothingness.

This is to me is exactly the state I would trade everything to be in and I'm sure this was the state that was most likely implied in this thread.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Judas that is an interpretation that no one has yet considered. Is what you are saying a bit like saying you would enjoy not existing?

This part of the post is relevant to the interpretation that most people gave the question, namely whether they would give up their minds in exchange for that of a carefree mental state.
"Would you give up yourself to be happy?"
Logically, if you give up yourself you are no longer yourself. If you identify others as being in this "happy" state that you cannot reach yourself, then it would never be you that was happy - it would still be them.

However I wonder how many people, envying those who have an ignorant happy bliss (if this is your defintion of "happy") would actually want their child to be born as one of these imbeciles? Another thing is that there must be some forms of brain damage you could do that could put yourself into that kind of state. You would really want that, honestly?

As Old Scratch says - contentment is also happiness and that can be achieved while remaining intelligent. We all need this kind of happiness.
Why? Because it keeps our bodies healthy. It strengthens our immune systems. Misery makes us ill.
So the next question is: what's so good about being healthy as opposed to ill?
And after that: what's so good about being alive rather than dead?

Seditious made an excellent point in saying:

to 'what's so good about happiness' I think it is easy enough to refute saying 'what is so good about everything else in life?'

Yes, the whole idea of asking "what's so good?" implies that some things are good and others not. What's so good about "good" things?

 

[Seditious]

Judas that is an interpretation that no one has yet considered. Is what you are saying a bit like saying you would enjoy not existing?

What I took from his post was just a profound state of contentment, the kind most people don't find because while they find happiness they don't often stop and enjoy it they do a thousand other things in the world.

This part of the post is relevant to the interpretation that most people gave the question, namely whether they would give up their minds in exchange for that of a carefree mental state.

I chose my words beyond the catchy headline fairly carefully. you can't give up your 'self' you 'consciousness' your 'mind' (I use them fairly synonymously), you would have to terminate your brain to do so.
I merely said brainwashing.... give up your hobbies, your interests, your pursuits, your friends, your habits, etc etc, so that you are still an experiencing being, but you've givin up your identity in the world, to gain something you wanted from the world (unless somehow you refute that you want to be happy). My proposal was of course, if being intelligent, a hard worker, friendly, talented, etc are all means to doing things in the world which make you happier, if you can simply be given the happiness you want, what do you need all those things for? are they not but means? sure we have an ego attachment to them, but it seems strange, the analogy is that it would be to keep our money rather than give it up in return for everything we could ever want to buy.

there must be some forms of brain damage you could do that could put yourself into that kind of state. You would really want that, honestly?

mhmm, same as the brainwashing question, just more concrete in its cause. I think most of us are so attached to things egotisically and that's the only reason it's a tough choice---we grow up thinking about helping people, and doing 'great' things, and having people love and admire us - and we live denying we want these things because we would feel good in doing them...
we don't want a rapist to love us, we dont want to prostitute ourselves out and be loved by people who buy hookers, we don't want to make tools of ourselves simply acting to make other people happy, we only want to make certain people happy and those peoples happiness will make us happy, for otherwise we do not want to do it---that's the whole 'there is no altruism' thing we seem to avoid in thinking we may 'do good in the world' as if it is for the world alone, rather than a mutually beneficial act we do for ourselves.

Misery makes us ill.
So the next question is: what's so good about being healthy as opposed to ill?
And after that: what's so good about being alive rather than dead?

yep. that's another thing I disagree with in Objectivism. What is so good about life if it is merely our task to prolong life and do what is life affirming rather than something we actually are free to live---or not live---as we so choose. Life can only be an instrumental good. It seems very easily refuted.

the whole idea of asking "what's so good?" implies that some things are good and others not. What's so good about "good" things?

mhmm. it's the reason there are no pure nihilists. we cannot escape our intrinsic values---try your best to change pleasure and pain and the best thing you'll achieve is pleasure from pain, but you'll never be able to actually make pleasure as undesirable as pain, as I think Ayn Rand best explained, 'the standard of value that determines bodily right and wrong is set innately.' we can fuck with 'morality' all we want because that is a falsehood, but we can never overturn the innate good and bad. and I've never seen anyone say they wanted money for its own sake, nor any other means to happiness, they're simply not so good when they lead to your suffering instead of your happiness. and just like 'what's so good about chocolate' there's no real answer but the obvious, the same thats good about carbon dioxide to the tree, it's nothing on its own, it's nothing good, but we can't help but by our very nature accept without argument that it is good to us.

 

[AMERICAN NORSEMAN]

I would want to go back, whatever has happened to me or that I have done in the past is what has made me who I am, I don't think I could ever be truly happy if I found out about a different past, a different me.

 

[...jan]

I would never trade myself to reach happiness, as I wouldn't be happy; I'd just be a "dumbed down" shell.

I am pretty much content every day, but not nearly all the time. My way of thought has always been rather pessimistic, over-analyzing and serious.
Though it's still the same as before, I've found happiness in being satisfied with small things one usually don't notice. Examples of this would be watching a beautiful sunset/sunrise, playing a song on the guitar flawlessly and feel every note, getting rid of a small ache of temporary hunger, or once in a while think contently "sheesh, I can actually flip around backwards and twist a 360 in midair before landing" (I am an acrobat). I'd rather focus on the positive sides than observing all the negatives. And as one positive often makes up for ten negatives, I'd rather find all the positives. (Woo, clichés.)

Finally hitting the arpeggios in This Godless Endeavor once absolutely makes up for failing it 100 times, right?

That's kind of my way of thinking. Over-analyzing might be an advantage in theoretical thinking and school projects, but it downright sucks practically. Thinking about hitting the arpeggios that one time definitely beats thinking about not having a dad, for example.

Thus I wouldn't give up myself to achieve happiness, because even though I know how much things in reality suck, and how pointless it all is, it's better to live, experience and appreciate than to live in ignorance and fake happiness. True happiness is appreciated and carefully thought out, not just lived through.

Sorry for roaming about with my stream of consciousness. I hope it made any sense.