Writing Songs for Guitar
- Thread starter metal_wrath
- Start date
Heckelgruber
Fudgenator
Geez, that's right everyone - pile in on metal_wrath when he starts a more worthwhile thread. With any luck he'll go back to winding people up again. You guys need to acknowledge your own role in turning this place into Blabbermouth - unmotivated personal attacks that have no relevance to the thread.
metal_wrath: I sympathise - I'm quite new to guitar playing too so maybe you shouldn't take any of my advice too seriously but for what it's worth:
- Try messing about on the bottom couple of strings using the natural minor and Phrygian scales, maybe just in E.
- More ambitiously, I think you need to investigate the idea of ear training and learning to associate the musical ideas you hear in your mind with where to move on the fretboard. I know a good book - PM if you're interested and I'll find the title.
- Bollocks to stuff about people criticising stuff for being "limiting" at this stage. How is someone supposed to play with musical conventions and break rules in a creative way without even knowing what those conventions are?
Good luck.
metal_wrath: I sympathise - I'm quite new to guitar playing too so maybe you shouldn't take any of my advice too seriously but for what it's worth:
- Try messing about on the bottom couple of strings using the natural minor and Phrygian scales, maybe just in E.
- More ambitiously, I think you need to investigate the idea of ear training and learning to associate the musical ideas you hear in your mind with where to move on the fretboard. I know a good book - PM if you're interested and I'll find the title.
- Bollocks to stuff about people criticising stuff for being "limiting" at this stage. How is someone supposed to play with musical conventions and break rules in a creative way without even knowing what those conventions are?
Good luck.
Heckelgruber said:
my thoughts exactly... I once knew a guy who wandted to take a shortcut and write innovative music without learning the scales... horiible is the right word for his attempts...
of course there are guys out there like MegaDave who know fuck all about theory and still write excellent riffs but I'm sure it took them long to attain such skill at writing them... Probably much longer than it would take to learn the damn scales
BrandonS
Member
- Apr 5, 2003
- 2,668
- 2
- 38
I didn't start learning scales until after I had written 2 full-length albums. I still only know the basic scales, and I know them as shapes and what key they start in rather than what scale they are. But the thing is, I was good at writing music and improvising solos before I even knew what a scale was. Since I learned the scales it has actually limited my solo improv skills because I tend to try to stick to a scale instead of just focusing on the sound. Yes, screw the scales, FOCUS ON THE SOUND. That's the most important thing any musician will ever tell you. I've made a chord progression that used all dischords, I don't even think they were in a scale, but it was awesome because it sounded right, had a cool melody and a nice lead overtop, and some good low grunts.
I always get asked about my musical theory, and Jinn told me I know theory, since I can write an awesome song in just one day and it takes him weeks.... but I never tried to learn theory and I honestly don't even know what theory is. I guess I was born with it. :-\ I honestly believe musicians like Jari Maenpaa, and other multi-instrumentalists that like almost have to be born with theory or at least it develops super-easy. Or maybe this whole thing is just a matter of creativity and experimentation, I don't know. I can even write stuff just using a keyboard now, and despite the goofiness, I can even do vocal layers and harmonies... well, kinda. Learning how to sing is a whole differen't thing in it's own.
But other than that advice, really, if you want to learn a Metal Scale, then learn E Minor. Record yourself playing E Minor into the computer, and set it to repeat in Winamp or something, and then just keep solo'ing and solo'ing and figure out what notes sound right in E minor until you've got it figured out. Use slides a lot, I did all that when I started out. I usually just use slides to get a cool sound now, though. But if you're like Jimi Hendrix, you'll need to use slides and bends to get the right note because you can't friggin' hit it right off the bat. ^_^
After you've learned E minor, learn A minor. Same basic shape, just up one string and you add an extra note there.. check a chord diagram or something because I really can't explain chords over the net in text. Learn E minor, E Major, A Minor, A Major, D minor, and D major... and then you can move them all over the fretboard. Then you'll know what 20% of all metal musicians use, the other 60% use basic powerchords, and the other 20% use large chords and dischords like Opeth used to do.
Always stay in E Standard. Downtuning is for people who can't make decent riffs in E Standard.
I always get asked about my musical theory, and Jinn told me I know theory, since I can write an awesome song in just one day and it takes him weeks.... but I never tried to learn theory and I honestly don't even know what theory is. I guess I was born with it. :-\ I honestly believe musicians like Jari Maenpaa, and other multi-instrumentalists that like almost have to be born with theory or at least it develops super-easy. Or maybe this whole thing is just a matter of creativity and experimentation, I don't know. I can even write stuff just using a keyboard now, and despite the goofiness, I can even do vocal layers and harmonies... well, kinda. Learning how to sing is a whole differen't thing in it's own.
But other than that advice, really, if you want to learn a Metal Scale, then learn E Minor. Record yourself playing E Minor into the computer, and set it to repeat in Winamp or something, and then just keep solo'ing and solo'ing and figure out what notes sound right in E minor until you've got it figured out. Use slides a lot, I did all that when I started out. I usually just use slides to get a cool sound now, though. But if you're like Jimi Hendrix, you'll need to use slides and bends to get the right note because you can't friggin' hit it right off the bat. ^_^
After you've learned E minor, learn A minor. Same basic shape, just up one string and you add an extra note there.. check a chord diagram or something because I really can't explain chords over the net in text. Learn E minor, E Major, A Minor, A Major, D minor, and D major... and then you can move them all over the fretboard. Then you'll know what 20% of all metal musicians use, the other 60% use basic powerchords, and the other 20% use large chords and dischords like Opeth used to do.
Always stay in E Standard. Downtuning is for people who can't make decent riffs in E Standard.
Opethian666
Booze influenced
- Sep 17, 2005
- 1,105
- 0
- 36
I don't use theories or anything. I think the best approach to making a song is to begin with making one riff that you really think destroys. So you make one killer riff with a certain atmosphere, and you can start off from that idea. Make sure you feel your riff, and this should automatically give you ideas with a similar feeling/mood that can climax into your killer riff, or can follow up on it. Writing intros and outros that fit with the song isn't really hard, the hardest part is the main riffs and the idea/atmosphere you want in your music, and keeping that in your mindset and always having a nice overview on the whole, and a loose structure already in your mind before you make the song, that will continually evolve as you continue making the song.
Finally a post worth reading. Thanks for the tipsHeckelgruber said:
I am interested in translating ideas to the fretboard that are in my head, rather than strictly using scales. Also I thought that E natural minor and phrygian would be the way to go 
I do have some books on Guitar scales with fretboard diagrams that might come in handy. I will see how it goes, as I have yet to actually come up with anything using scales or not. But I have not been trying very hard, until lately I have only concentrated on learning songs.Cheers, those sound like good tips.Oinkness said:
affinityband
Member
Alteredmindeath
Wasteland Survivor
Cool scales if used with skill...
Melodic minor scales
Harmonic minor scales
Pentatonic scales
Major scales
Augmented scales
etc....
Melodic minor scales
Harmonic minor scales
Pentatonic scales
Major scales
Augmented scales
etc....
Towedwart
I will have a apple
affinityband
Member
oinkness said:
E standard is the same as any 'standard' tuning genius just in a different Key. BTW your an idiot even after that magnificent speech imo
Same shit different thread...........I better should remember not to post next time
(somehow my shining tells me what the next post will be....)
(somehow my shining tells me what the next post will be....)
naboo
Just Ask The Axis
- Oct 6, 2004
- 662
- 0
- 16
Just keep jamming. You'll eventually notice patterns and other things that sound good together. I think it really just comes down to experience. There's no REAL formula to sit down and work out a song; I don't think so at least (although songs can follow a few general rules which many people call formulas). Just keep playing with what you know/think sounds good.
neilyoungfan
Its Herbie Hancock
fizz6207
Member
Heres some tips I dont think others have mentioned yet.
- It might sound a bit stupid, but learn riffs in a band you likes songs, and copy them to make your own riffs. Now of course you will all scream "THATS PLAGIARISM" but you dont necessarily have to use these copied riffs, but they will expand your way of writing. I have come up with songs with riffs completely different to what I was originally inspired by in this way. It just helps to get your brain flowing with ideas.
- Im presuming your mainly interested in writing metal, if thats the case and your writing heavy riffs well dont just stick to power chords. Try inverted power chords (with the root note higher than the 5th) and other harmonies, and just generally muck around with your fingers in weird shapes until you find something which sounds cool. Your riffs will sound a lot more original and can convey more emotion or feeling in this way. (if your learning opeth songs then you probably will have already discovered some cool sounding chords for metal)
- Save all your ideas somewhere! Best method I have found for this is guitar pro. Theres nothing worse than writing a killer riff and the next morning realising you have forgotten it!!
- It might sound a bit stupid, but learn riffs in a band you likes songs, and copy them to make your own riffs. Now of course you will all scream "THATS PLAGIARISM" but you dont necessarily have to use these copied riffs, but they will expand your way of writing. I have come up with songs with riffs completely different to what I was originally inspired by in this way. It just helps to get your brain flowing with ideas.
- Im presuming your mainly interested in writing metal, if thats the case and your writing heavy riffs well dont just stick to power chords. Try inverted power chords (with the root note higher than the 5th) and other harmonies, and just generally muck around with your fingers in weird shapes until you find something which sounds cool. Your riffs will sound a lot more original and can convey more emotion or feeling in this way. (if your learning opeth songs then you probably will have already discovered some cool sounding chords for metal)
- Save all your ideas somewhere! Best method I have found for this is guitar pro. Theres nothing worse than writing a killer riff and the next morning realising you have forgotten it!!
neilyoungfan
Its Herbie Hancock
rrjii2000
Member
metal_wrath said:
While messing around and jamming out is fun, it's payoff is limited. Jamming should be part of your daily practice schedule but only a small part.
Figure out how much time per day you can spare for guitar practice. Then create a list of things you want to improve. Orginize these ideas into a list, then religously do them Every Day.
-Example-
1. Warmup (10mins)
2. Scales (15mins)
3. Chords (15mins)
4. Picking Excercises (10 mins)
5. Tapping (10mins)
6. Stamana Excercises (till it burns)
7. Syncopation Excercises (10mins)
This is just a sample list, you can even create a different list for each day of the week, this is what I do. Also the times are just a base (a minimum).
ALWAYS use a Metronome to practice with, and Never skip your warmup. It's important and can prevent muscle injury! A good warmup to use is:
Starting on Low E string, fingers over frets 1 2 3 4. Start playing this pattern 1 3 2 4 1 3 2 4 move to the A string and repeat.... Go all the way to high E then back down. Then move to the second fret and start over. Go to atleast the 12th fret, then back down. I use this, or a variation, quite often.
Now for music theory. There are alot of different opinions on this topic, but I know what has worked for me. IMO knowing how to spell all chord types in all keys is worth it's weight in Gold! This is much easier to learn on a keyboard, then bring it to your guitar. Learning triads and their inversions up and across the neck should be first priority. Start with Major, Minor and Sus voicings. Next learn the Major scales, there is usually more hype associated with the pentatonic scales, but the Major scales require more work, which will pay off in the future.
No matter where you are with your playing, going back to these basics and using them in a daily practice routine will make a huge difference in your playing.
One final thought, Make it Enjoyable. If your having fun its a whole lot more rewarding!
Rob
