Wtf is up with churches in the US?

[timislegend]

Your first point is actually highly debatable, especially in cases of affirmative action programs in schools, but it doesn't make the process any less racist. Benign discrimination is still discrimination, regardless of legal standing or moral justifiability.

Practically every Bible's first half is the Old Testament - of course it's going to observe the 12 Tribes of Israel as such. And of course I'm going to assume that most faiths are presumptuous - that's what every single religion EVER is based on. Considering that the Bible wasn't compiled until the 4th century CE, though there's a lot of time before that when non-Christians wreaked havoc on Jewish people for acting, quite literally, holier than thou.

I'm not saying that hating Jews for being Jewish is ever warranted, but there were certainly times in history where Jewish people deserved to have the shit kicked out of them by an opposing force, just like there were many times Christians, Mormons, Muslims, Pagans, and the French deserved (and still do, in French cases) the same.

Kind of funny to call my opinion one-sided, though - you're the one arguing that anti-Semitism is rarely if ever warranted. I'm just saying that while it's not the greatest thing in the world and certainly led to a lot of horrific stuff, to say that they never deserved to be beat on at all is a bit naïve.

you are right... affirmative action is debatable but the purpose of affirmative action is to neutralize bigotry. it's not a matter of racism because racism means something different. it also calls on the hierarchy of merits... where the limits and choices are under public scrutiny. affirmative action is not fair but in an oxymoronic sense... it is just.

i don't know if all faith is based on presumption because faith means something different for everyone. you just think it is presumptuous because that is your opinion (which i respect). there is no proof for or against religion so everyone will go on thinking whatever they want (until they die). i believe that the people of my faith were chosen by god for a specific mission to be a light to the nations, and to have a covenant with god... jews do not believe that they are "god's only choice." this is a conspiracy and misconception formed outside the jewish faith. nowhere does this text exist in the tanakh. jews actually believe that all people on earth are chosen by god (for a purpose). that can mean whatever you want it to mean... but i don't think i am better or "holier" than you or anyone else in any way. it just means that i am content in my faith.

i still don't see the connection of justifiable antisemitism ?... my faith may be crippling my rhetoric. i do however see your disticntion in acceptable acts of violence.

 

[FloridaRolf]

Oh look, it's this thread again

 

[ratsapprentice]

there is no proof for or against religion so everyone will go on thinking whatever they want (until they die).

Evolution and the theory behind 99% of modern science.

 

[guitarguru777]

Would you all just STFU already.....lol

No more debates!!

 

[JeffTD]

rac·ism noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Definition of RACISM

1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination

Affirmative action falls under all of this. I don't care what case you're talking about - UC Regents v Bakke, Grutter v Bollinger, Gratz v Bollinger, Prop 209 in CA... whatever - affirmative action is racist. ONCE AGAIN, whether or not that is constititonal or morally justifiable is not the issue - it is racist at it's core.

It's purpose is not to neutralize bigotry, but to ease white guilt. That's really what it comes down to.

pre·sump·tion noun \pri-ˈzəm(p)-shən\
Definition of PRESUMPTION

1
: presumptuous attitude or conduct : audacity
2
a : an attitude or belief dictated by probability : assumption
b : the ground, reason, or evidence lending probability to a belief
3
: a legal inference as to the existence or truth of a fact not certainly known that is drawn from the known or proved existence of some other fact

Definition 3 is key here - virtually all of religion falls under that.

You believing that your people were chosen by god for anything that anyone else wasn't chosen for is pretty 'holier than thou,' from where I'm standing.

As far as justifiable anti-Semitism... probably not the right choice of words. Like you said, though, there are certainly acceptable acts of violence - most of these get labeled as anti-Semitism as soon as they're directed at a primarily Jewish group of people, when that is just simply not the case (ie; you can be firmly anti-Israel, but that doesn't mean you're anti-Semetic. Just anti-genocide ).

you are right... affirmative action is debatable but the purpose of affirmative action is to neutralize bigotry. it's not a matter of racism because racism means something different. it also calls on the hierarchy of merits... where the limits and choices are under public scrutiny. affirmative action is not fair but in an oxymoronic sense... it is just.

i don't know if all faith is based on presumption because faith means something different for everyone. you just think it is presumptuous because that is your opinion (which i respect). there is no proof for or against religion so everyone will go on thinking whatever they want (until they die). i believe that the people of my faith were chosen by god for a specific mission to be a light to the nations, and to have a covenant with god... jews do not believe that they are "god's only choice." this is a conspiracy and misconception formed outside the jewish faith. nowhere does this text exist in the tanakh. jews actually believe that all people on earth are chosen by god (for a purpose). that can mean whatever you want it to mean... but i don't think i am better or "holier" than you or anyone else in any way. it just means that i am content in my faith.

i still don't see the connection of justifiable antisemitism ?... my faith may be crippling my rhetoric. i do however see your disticntion in acceptable acts of violence.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Evolution and the theory behind 99% of modern science.

That and most of the bible has been debunked with evidence by modern science. We know we are not made from dirt and water, evolution is not only a theory but a proven fact (take lab experiments with nats and the genetic differenced of a wolf to the domestic dog which are genetically IDENTICAL), we know through quantum and nuclear physics and testing the the earth is older than 6,000 years old, that no human has ever lived to be one thousands years old, the world is not flat, the earth revolves around the sun, which is NOT the center of the universe, the universe is expanding and thus the most reasonable answer of that due to basic laws of physics is there was an explosion...and I can go on and on, most of the bible has been debunked. Things that are hard to tell are a life after death and how the universe became (science is still trying to find the answer), and if Jesus was a real person, but if you used some common sense, the story of Jesus was told thousands and thousands of years before the roman empire, even before the ancient Egyptians, back in 6000BC and when the Old Testament was first published, the crusades where taking place and the census of the entire century that Jesus was "supposedly" alive where burned by orders of the church.

 

[Jind]

Just to clarify something,trust me I have no interest in getting into a debate about this, but "Affirmative Action" is only partially about "race" it is more about underrepresented groups of people as it effects not only people of different races, but also sex, religion, national origin (which is not racial but exactly what it states), and several other defining factors.

Just making sure you all know the facts and are clear about your arguments - no back to arguing, I'll take my leave

 

[Seth Munson]

I dont understand the debate?
its not like anything anyone says on this forum will change someones mind.

just gief up?

 

[Ermz]

What is 'affirmative action'? Not sure such a thing exists here. Sounds like potentially the biggest euphemism of all time?

EDIT: Scratch that, just read into it - we have plenty of that. Just under different names.

 

[Aaron Smith]

That and most of the bible has been debunked with evidence by modern science. We know we are not made from dirt and water, evolution is not only a theory but a proven fact (take lab experiments with nats and the genetic differenced of a wolf to the domestic dog which are genetically IDENTICAL), we know through quantum and nuclear physics and testing the the earth is older than 6,000 years old, that no human has ever lived to be one thousands years old, the world is not flat, the earth revolves around the sun, which is NOT the center of the universe, the universe is expanding and thus the most reasonable answer of that due to basic laws of physics is there was an explosion...

Do you even realize that none of the things you've just listed are inherently incompatible with Christianity? As a Christian, I honestly don't disagree with anything that you've just said... Remember, the role of the Bible is not as a scientific textbook (any Christian who tells you otherwise is fighting for their own interpretation, rather than seeking an interpretation free of their own biases). Rather, the role of the Bible is to reveal to us what man's relationship to God is, and to reveal the nature of God.

As far as Genesis is concerned, there are many, many Christians (today and throughout history) who have come to the realization that the natural process by which the creation of the universe and life in it occurred was not specified in the Bible, and that it could have very easily occurred by an evolutionary process set in motion by God.

Here's a quote from C.S. Lewis that hypothesizes much more eloquently than I can:

"For long centuries God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. He gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed for ages in this state before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say 'I' and 'me,' which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty, and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past. This new consciousness ruled and illuminated the whole organism, flooding every part of it with light, and was not, like ours, limited to a selection of the movements going on in one part of the organism, namely the brain. Man was then all consciousness."

The "SCIENCE TRUMPS GOD LAWL " thing is just the silliest, most shallow, petty argument to me... I will say it again, as I have many times before on the boards-

If you want to have a serious discussion about God and science, then the notion that God and his methods can be threatened by the light of scientific theory and advancement should be plainly, obviously flawed, as God created and is sovereign over everything. God (being by nature God) is responsible for creating every single particle of matter and energy in the universe, so it is utterly hopeless and preposterous to try to position the sum of all scientific knowledge in such a way that it abdicates God from existence.

 

[timislegend]

That and most of the bible has been debunked with evidence by modern science. We know we are not made from dirt and water, evolution is not only a theory but a proven fact (take lab experiments with nats and the genetic differenced of a wolf to the domestic dog which are genetically IDENTICAL), we know through quantum and nuclear physics and testing the the earth is older than 6,000 years old, that no human has ever lived to be one thousands years old, the world is not flat, the earth revolves around the sun, which is NOT the center of the universe, the universe is expanding and thus the most reasonable answer of that due to basic laws of physics is there was an explosion...and I can go on and on, most of the bible has been debunked. Things that are hard to tell are a life after death and how the universe became (science is still trying to find the answer), and if Jesus was a real person, but if you used some common sense, the story of Jesus was told thousands and thousands of years before the roman empire, even before the ancient Egyptians, back in 6000BC and when the Old Testament was first published, the crusades where taking place and the census of the entire century that Jesus was "supposedly" alive where burned by orders of the church.

seems like you've got it all figured out... i guess it's as simple as that.

 

[JeffTD]

Just to clarify something,trust me I have no interest in getting into a debate about this, but "Affirmative Action" is only partially about "race" it is more about underrepresented groups of people as it effects not only people of different races, but also sex, religion, national origin (which is not racial but exactly what it states), and several other defining factors.

Just making sure you all know the facts and are clear about your arguments - no back to arguing, I'll take my leave

Very valid point, thanks for bringing this into the fray. Anything I've said previously regarding affirmative action in this thread should be limited to affirmative action with a race-based legislative classification.

 

[Jeds7800]

.

 

[Morgan C]

Here's a quote from C.S. Lewis that hypothesizes much more eloquently than I can:

"For long centuries God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. He gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed for ages in this state before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say 'I' and 'me,' which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty, and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past. This new consciousness ruled and illuminated the whole organism, flooding every part of it with light, and was not, like ours, limited to a selection of the movements going on in one part of the organism, namely the brain. Man was then all consciousness."

I have no idea where this thread has gone or if what I'm commenting has any relevance, but what evidence is there to suggest we are anything but animals? The quote in bold I'd argue still fully applies to humanity today, albeit indirectly.

Just out of curiosity Aaron, do you believe in alien life? And if so, how does that fit in with humanity being the sole centre of God's universe?

 

[DanLights]

seems like you've got it all figured out... i guess it's as simple as that.

I too have no idea how this thread came to this after starting as a discussion about PA systems in churches and don't feel like reading the whole thing, but I would like to Know Tim what you meant to say with this comment? No it's not simple, if it was simple any of us could've "deducted" all that centuries ago, instead it has taken years and the greatest minds on the earth to gather all that research and evidence. No wintersnow hasn't got it all figured out, neither have I nor you, as he said there are still things not figured out.

So what was your point? Cause you usually come out as a really cool and thoughtful guy but I found this comment really lame, condescending and vaguely offensive

 

[El_Gato]

Former creatinists defending evolution

Former anti-condom christian opinions turned into pro-condom now

Jews defending palestinian houses that are being destroyed ilegally by the Israel army.

Now, everything the church was denying, turned to be true: it exists (from flat earth to evolution)

Timislegend: sorry, but your jew people is not the chosen for anything but killing for territory, it seems. Tell me what else have they been chosen for.

Aaron: don't play games like that. We all know what christians say about evolution and it has been proved by science everytime. The clerarest example is Adam and Eve. For centuries christians keep saying we were created from them (very chauvinist BTW, when saying Eve was created from the Adam's rib). Now come here and tell me it's another metaphoric tale that is not really the content of the Bible.

But it's ok, if they didn't accept evolution yet, they will do, as everything else that has been proved. Like flat earth lol

 

[ratsapprentice]

The discussion has reached it's inevitable end, the religious trump card.
God is infallable.
Science proves something to it's best ability beyond reasonable/logical doubt, only to have religions say that it was/is god's will.


Btw, I do not think modern science is absolute in terms of being "right".

 

[El_Gato]

The discussion has reached it's inevitable end, the religious trump card.
God is infallable.
Science proves something to it's best ability beyond reasonable/logical doubt, only to have religions say that it was/is god's will.


Btw, I do not think modern science is absolute in terms of being "right".

In what terms are exactly scientists wrong? flat earth?, evolution?, homosexuality? vih spread? Which ones?

If we end up comparing science vs religion, I don't think you can compare empiric facts against divine tales, sorry.

BTW, I tried to stay on topic until last page but no one replied and furthermore, this is becoming ridiculous now.

You can keep debating how big bang was or how good was god in creating the universe in 6 days. But what about all those facts that have been sold to us until science stopped their feet with FACTS? Now, religious retract themselves and and step back to the creation to maintain their arguments and faith. I guess nobody is interested now in discussing about Adam and Eve (who are still being taught in many, many schools).

To stay on topic: No, having thousands of $ in gear it's not compatible with religious thoughts, period.

 

[SocialNumb]

The "SCIENCE TRUMPS GOD LAWL " thing is just the silliest, most shallow, petty argument to me... I will say it again, as I have many times before on the boards-

If you want to have a serious discussion about God and science, then the notion that God and his methods can be threatened by the light of scientific theory and advancement should be plainly, obviously flawed, as God created and is sovereign over everything. God (being by nature God) is responsible for creating every single particle of matter and energy in the universe, so it is utterly hopeless and preposterous to try to position the sum of all scientific knowledge in such a way that it abdicates God from existence.

This all assumes "God" exist. There is no serious discussion to be had about "God". If there is one at all, and you can't show there is, you and I don't know a darn thing about "Him". Sure you can read out that failure which is The Bible and interpret it any way you want but so could I, negatively. I actually take the bible literalist more seriously. At least this person doesn't make shit up. At the end of the day, for me, there is nothing after death, for you, that diseases people call faith.

All that being said, nothing personal.

 

[Morgan C]

In what terms are exactly scientists wrong? flat earth?, evolution?, homosexuality? vih spread? Which ones?

Probably the vih spread. ;p