2008 Political debate thread

[Swabs]

Hey, if people can vote for a President because they think they will be awesome at blowing up other countries. Then people can have whatever ridiculous reasons they want.

 

[squidfetish]

I still find it interesting that Obama makes much stronger faith-based comments that are rarely called into attention, but a simple prayer request from a Republican candidate plasters headlines.

Could that be something to do with Republican accusations of Muslim ancestry and leanings? Play the Christian card to take the heat off. Simple bullshit politicking.

Why vote when all you have to choose between is a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwhich?

That sounds horribly familiar - we have much the same problem. Democracy, doncha love it?

I'm going to vote for Obama, mainly because I don't want another George Bush as president.

That seems like a crummy reason to vote for Obama.

I dunno man, sounds like the old 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' thing....

I'm amazed at actually how many people have said that recently. Is weed really that important? It's a plant that makes you really hungry and see strange colors when you close your eyes, why would someone vote for a candidate because of that?

I dunno, but it would be nice to be able to skin one up and get wasted without the risk of spending 20 years behind bars having my liitle white ass pounded by the bull queers...

 

[RiderOfJustice]

I'm amazed at actually how many people have said that recently. Is weed really that important? It's a plant that makes you really hungry and see strange colors when you close your eyes, why would someone vote for a candidate because of that?

Well... It's not just the fact that I love smoking weed that makes me feel this way, it's very easy to get, I don't have a problem with that, but the fact that it's illegal while much harder and more dangerous substances such as alcohol and ciggarettes remain legal is ridiculous. The fact that everyone knows that when it was decided to be criminalized, it was lies and falsities that drove the decision. And for our government to just blindly ignore this fact and not overule this decision is just retarded. At least obama has the guts to acknowledge this unlike all the pussy republicans who just blindly support what the government has already established so they don't lose face.

 

[noble savage]

I definitely agree with you guys, I think it should be 100% legal. My friends parents smoked weed for 20+ years and they are completely normal, intelligent people. Hell, Carl Sagan regularly used it and attributed many intellectual insights to it. I actually find it astonishing that it is still illegal. Out of every recreational drug out there, it seems by and large the safest with even potential benefits.

I was just pointing out that there are a huge number of reasons why/not you should vote for someone.

 

[RiderOfJustice]

The government is full of pussies too scared to change anything that doesen't make any sense. Too scared to rub someone, anyone, the wrong way. By doing so, they rub EVERYONE the wrong way. Ironic.

 

[squidfetish]

I definitely agree with you guys, I think it should be 100% legal. My friends parents smoked weed for 20+ years and they are completely normal, intelligent people. Hell, Carl Sagan regularly used it and attributed many intellectual insights to it. I actually find it astonishing that it is still illegal. Out of every recreational drug out there, it seems by and large the safest with even potential benefits.

Yes mate, it's like everything else - you gotta distinguish between use and abuse. It's not a good idea to get too mad with any substances. I like a smoke, but some of my mates grow this really hectic shit.. I can't cope with that at all, it just wipes me out. Don't wanna sound like an old fart, but moderation is key - get munted alright, just not all the time. Some of my sickest riffage has come about when I'm cained tho hehe...

 

[Phanto]

Is that a laugh as in "Haha, it's much better in Sweden!"?

Uhm I wouldn't do political comparisons between a huge fucking country of 305 000 000 people and a country with only 9 000 000. (But yes it's better - we can openly discriminate against any group here. )

I don't see the discrimination really. I don't believe in anything and I don't want to call myself an Atheist either but addressing religious groups or whatever and maybe say some shit about God (which he did to get votes cuz he's not a dumbass) doesn't make me feel discriminated (and wouldn't if I were in your position either). They'll do anything to get votes including sucking religious dick so don't care about it and just go for whoever has the best core values and politics.

Edit; as for the weed debate just legalize everything and let natural selection run its course.

 

[fullnelson]

Dude, its a fact that the man Obama credits as his "mentor" in his biography, Frank Marshall Davis, was an outspoken marxist and member of the Communist Party in the US. Obama himself says this man was like a father to him, and gave him career advice. Why should I feel comfortable about that? Not to mention that Obama is extremely religious. Granted so is Palin, and yea a lot of the shit I've read about what she's said scares me, but I'm having to weigh what I think is really going to have the least negative impact on this country. I hate the republicans and the democrats both, but I'm thinking at least if theres a republican in the white house, coupled with a democratic majority in the senate and house, theres less chance much of anything will get done.

No matter who is elected, nothing is going to get better, so I can only hope for the worsening process to slow.

I see. I agree that you have to weigh your concerns. For example, I like McCain, but Palin is scary to me. I was already for Obama before then, but that pick just sealed it for me because I think McCain will likely die in office.

I still don't understand why associations are so important to you. I can see how they would make you uncomfortable, but personal associates don't represent people. Think about your own life. Do you have anyone in it you trust who doesn't share your views and values? I have had a mentor-like person in my life who is a socialist. He is a great, kind man. My real father is a conservative and I would attribute to him the same characteristics and more. I'm neither a conservative or a socialist. I look up to both of them, but neither represent my views. I don't see how it's fair to judge me based on knowing and caring about these people, and I also don't see the point in judging Obama for the same reason. His views are clearly laid out in debates, interviews, his website, legislative record and etc. Judge him by that.

edit: I had to drive behind McCain's motorcade 2 weeks ago. It was slow as hell. I'm surprised it makes it anywhere on time.

 

[razoredge]

good grief

 

[Yngvai X]

I see. I agree that you have to weigh your concerns. For example, I like McCain, but Palin is scary to me. I was already for Obama before then, but that pick just sealed it for me because I think McCain will likely die in office.

I still don't understand why associations are so important to you. I can see how they would make you uncomfortable, but personal associates don't represent people. Think about your own life. Do you have anyone in it you trust who doesn't share your views and values? I have had a mentor-like person in my life who is a socialist. He is a great, kind man. My real father is a conservative and I would attribute to him the same characteristics and more. I'm neither a conservative or a socialist. I look up to both of them, but neither represent my views. I don't see how it's fair to judge me based on knowing and caring about these people, and I also don't see the point in judging Obama for the same reason. His views are clearly laid out in debates, interviews, his website, legislative record and etc. Judge him by that.

I'm a firm believer in being able to judge someone's character by who they consider to be closest to them or who they admire greatly. Sure I have people that I trust that would disagree with me on some key values (I'm an atheist and I associate with a few spiritual people, and even some Christians). However, my relationship with them might not be as such that it would have an impact on me. In the same light, if someone's values were vastly different from my own I might not want to associate with them at all. For example, I'm not going to associate with someone that thinks its ok to mug people for gas money. The people who I consider the closest to me are ones that I admire the most and look up to or feel an equal to in some way or form, and I really feel that either intentional or not, people do like to be closest to those that they feel that affinity towards. Why do you think if a parent notices that their child has started to hang out with the older kid that is a known drug user they become concerned?

Frank Marshall Davis was not a friday night drinking buddy from work for Obama. This is a man he considered as close as a father and a mentor to him. So of course, its going to send up some severe, glaring, red flags to see that this person who Obama idolized was a card carrying Communist Party member.

I agree with Noble Savage that "Atheist" is one of the most stigma carrying things to call yourself in the US. I had a fairly good relationship with a girl end because she found out how serious of an Atheist I am, and she wasn't a Christian either. I have to be *very* selective who I share those kinds of views with (of course I have no remorse going on about them to all you folks ). Philosophy and religion play a stronger part in peoples lives than a lot of people think. If you challenge someone's religious/philosophical views, you're basically challenging the basis of how they perceive reality. And to a lot of very religious and spiritual people, merely hearing that someone is an Atheist is like getting the spiritual duelists glove bitch slap. And even to more mildly spiritual people it could certainly color the perception of someone.

Now I'm gonna tie this back to Obama. The notion that he is extremely religious further compounds my fear of the idea of him being president. Christianity and the right wing are fundamentally polar opposites of each other. The right is supposed to support more economic individual freedom, yet whats one of the biggest aspects of Christianity? To be your brother's keeper, which is an aspect of socialism. If Obama is able to sway the fundamentalists to the left, he'll be able to present them with a political outlook that goes hand in hand with the religion that they are already zealous over. Keep in mind, Obamas the guy saying he is pro choice but wants to "make it easier for women to choose life." Now what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

 

[Ascension]

a lot of people throughout history were alcoholics. That doesn't make them bad people and that doesn't make their words false. I think Sinclair Lewis was a more insightful person than most people who are living these days.

I agree...I find it interesting that he & others are able broaden our perspectives with the hope that we can rid the demons that plague us...yet struggle & succumb to their own.

 

[Beelzebub]

I'm a firm believer in being able to judge someone's character by who they consider to be closest to them or who they admire greatly. Sure I have people that I trust that would disagree with me on some key values (I'm an atheist and I associate with a few spiritual people, and even some Christians). However, my relationship with them might not be as such that it would have an impact on me. In the same light, if someone's values were vastly different from my own I might not want to associate with them at all. For example, I'm not going to associate with someone that thinks its ok to mug people for gas money. The people who I consider the closest to me are ones that I admire the most and look up to or feel an equal to in some way or form, and I really feel that either intentional or not, people do like to be closest to those that they feel that affinity towards. Why do you think if a parent notices that their child has started to hang out with the older kid that is a known drug user they become concerned?

You wouldn't hang out with people who think it's acceptable to mug people for gas money (they probably can't afford to have a car anyway) and realistically, how many kids do you know of firsthand who habitually hang out with older drug users? Those extremes you mention are preposterous as they represent people from opposite socioeconomic backgrounds.

Frank Marshall Davis was not a friday night drinking buddy from work for Obama. This is a man he considered as close as a father and a mentor to him. So of course, its going to send up some severe, glaring, red flags to see that this person who Obama idolized was a card carrying Communist Party member.

I don't understand why you have so much beef with a party where there's rampant atheism. Anyway, Davis was a communist during the red scare so of course it would have been a bigger deal back then. Plenty of Americans identify with communism now and you wouldn't be able to pick them out in the street. It's certainly possible for a person to hold someone in high esteem and not agree with them politically.

I agree with Noble Savage that "Atheist" is one of the most stigma carrying things to call yourself in the US. I had a fairly good relationship with a girl end because she found out how serious of an Atheist I am, and she wasn't a Christian either. I have to be *very* selective who I share those kinds of views with (of course I have no remorse going on about them to all you folks ). Philosophy and religion play a stronger part in peoples lives than a lot of people think. If you challenge someone's religious/philosophical views, you're basically challenging the basis of how they perceive reality. And to a lot of very religious and spiritual people, merely hearing that someone is an Atheist is like getting the spiritual duelists glove bitch slap. And even to more mildly spiritual people it could certainly color the perception of someone.

Absolutely correct. There was a Times article a few years back that surveyed people about their preferences in a president. Women, black, other minority, men, under 40, and surprisingly gay all outranked atheist. It's definitely a shame. I've always believed that religion has nothing to do with m****s (obviously, since many imm**** things have been done in the name of god) and those statistics were indeed very disappointing.

Now I'm gonna tie this back to Obama. The notion that he is extremely religious further compounds my fear of the idea of him being president. Christianity and the right wing are fundamentally polar opposites of each other. The right is supposed to support more economic individual freedom, yet whats one of the biggest aspects of Christianity? To be your brother's keeper, which is an aspect of socialism. If Obama is able to sway the fundamentalists to the left, he'll be able to present them with a political outlook that goes hand in hand with the religion that they are already zealous over. Keep in mind, Obamas the guy saying he is pro choice but wants to "make it easier for women to choose life." Now what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

It's funny you think Obama's a staunch Christian when many right-wingers think he's a secret Muslim, and I personally think he's an atheist. The world will never know! I think he's been saying quotes like the ones you mentioned to gain the support of the religious demographic. Should he have to? No. Will it help him gain votes? Sure. If you've noticed, he's been saying God Bless America, God this, God that, etc. a whole lot more often lately. Christian right-wingers will never, ever sway to the left because they are a bit too into the Old Testament ("brother's keeper" being a term from Genesis) and Revelations, parts of the Bible which put emphasis on a punishing, unforgiving, havoc-wreaking sort of deity. For example, they are very homophobic and use the story of Sodom and Gomorrah to justify their reasoning. The Bible has been used to justify slavery (I can go into further detail if you want) and heaps of them believe that black people are an inferior race.

 

[Beelzebub]

why has the word mor.al been filtered?

 

[noble savage]

M****

Wow, that has to be a joke or something. So I can say 'cocksucker' and nothing happens?

Also, excellent points, Matt. When people press me on the issue (Fortunately, it doesn't happen often) I just use 'Humanist' instead because that kind of describes what I believe and what I don't, if that makes sense. And doesn't get an immediate gasp and "Oh my, you must do drugs and murder people"....

 

[symphonyXjapan]

Lots of great points Beelzebub!

I have also felt that Obama isn't really very religious as well, and that he has recently been making himself seem that way in order to bring in more of the christian demographic. Even so, I don't know if I would go so far as to say he is an atheist, rather I feel sometimes people don't realize the difference between atheist and agnostic. I feel Obama may be closer to agnostic than atheist.

Also, I was thinking the same thing about what was said on the relationship between religous beliefs and political parties. Conservatives are the ones who are always trying to mix religion with politics (see Sean Hannity) whereas liberals are the ones who usually think logically. Liberals are usually more made up of people who fall under non-christian religions, atheism, and agnostisism.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Liberals thinking logically? That made me laugh, I needed that!

 

[Phanto]

why has the word mor.al been filtered?

cuz it contains o.ral. I guess to most people and the dictionary it means mouth but I guess it also means "suck my dick bitch" or something to whoever wrote the word filter on this forum. someone not very bright.

****. m****. c****. take it ****ly. schm****.

yap.

 

[noble savage]

Liberals thinking logically? That made me laugh, I needed that!

Seriously, just take a quick glance at the democratic party as a whole and you will realize that 'logic' has no place in it.

 

[Beelzebub]

Also, I was thinking the same thing about what was said on the relationship between religous beliefs and political parties. Conservatives are the ones who are always trying to mix religion with politics (see Sean Hannity) whereas liberals are the ones who usually think logically. Liberals are usually more made up of people who fall under non-christian religions, atheism, and agnostisism.

I think you're pigeonholing. So many people nowadays overlook how liberal Jesus was for his time. Plenty of liberal Christians exist and it's not right to stereotype all of them that way. I'd say that it's more Christian extremists who would fall under the category you described. When practiced properly, any religion can be a peaceful, uplifting lifestyle choice. Corruption gets in the way and fucks everything up.

cuz it contains o.ral. I guess to most people and the dictionary it means mouth but I guess it also means "suck my dick bitch" or something to whoever wrote the word filter on this forum. someone not very bright.

****. m****. c****. take it ****ly. schm****.

yap.

Censor test!

shit piss fuck dick cunt anal ****

Interesting.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Just for the record, I don't know if those are global filters for UM, or something set up just for this specific forum. It ain't me, nor do do I think its Jax, either...