2008 Political debate thread

[ABQShredHead]

The aim for the war on Iraq was to take actions against a "rogue" nation after a lack of action by the UN and the taunting by Saddam. The UN set sanctions and inspection requirements but did not follow through on them.

There were plenty of reasons to go to war in Iraq.

Even Ms. Pelosi argued reasons:

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.​

And Bob Graham:

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.​

Or, you can read my dad's friend's splendid book.

But, really, we're there, we're working toward stabilization, and then we'll come home. Not following through to completion there will mean all soldiers from all involved countries who have died will have died in vain.

Or, as razor argues, we'll go to Afghanistan instead of home. Or, we can pick up where President Clinton left off, and go to Africa.

 

[Swabs]

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.​

So you're telling me that you actually fell for the "omgweaponsofmassdestruction" hysteria?

 

[ABQShredHead]

Notice the date. That was a Democrat speaking before Bush became President.

Here's another:

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.​

Again, quotes from Democrats before a "warmonger" came into office. "Necessary actions" were not taken by President Clinton nor the UN. After a blatant terrorist attack on US soil, pre-emption of aggression and availability of potential "WMDs" to terrorist groups were good reasons to go to war, according to Congress and public opinion.

History has shown that WMDs either did not exist (though he used them many many times against his own people) or they disappeared. But that is hindsight.

 

[Kenneth R.]

People are still offering up the inexperience argument?

 

[EyeballKid]

Wait, wait, wait... Obama is black?!

Wait, wait, wait...Obama has policies? I thought he was just a rock star.

People are still offering up the inexperience argument?

I think it's a pretty valid argument.

Hope for change and all, but the facts are the facts: Obama is not very experienced. If you have proof that he is experienced, please offer. This may or may not truly effect how he serves the country as President, but his inexperience is true.

 

[Marwen]

It's true but it's unimportant, or at least not as important as people think and act as if is.
That's what the man has been trying to say (for too long than he should have normally been ) yet kept getting more and more displays of partial comprehension of his argument.

 

[schenkadere]

People are still offering up the inexperience argument?

Seems like you've joined the mania...are you part black?

Are you just wearing the T-shirt or going for the tattoo?

Experience is extremely important...like in any job...you'll be chewed up and spit out. It's still the same world of politics, big business and lobbyists...that's the USA folks...like it or not.

 

[Kenneth R.]

"that's the USA folks, like it or not"

Thats why I voted for Obama. To put a stop to this kind of bullshit running our country.

Once again: JFK vs Bush. Better president? Experience.

 

[schenkadere]

"that's the USA folks, like it or not"

Thats why I voted for Obama. To put a stop to this kind of bullshit running our country.

Once again: JFK vs Bush. Better president? Experience.

Yes...he'll put a stop to it. I voted for him as well, but to feel he is going to change the entire established system in 4 years is naive.

Experience isn't the only factor, obviously. If I'm hiring for a position, in many cases, experience will be a determining factor. Does it mean that in the end I made the best choice? Not necessarily...only time can tell. In my business, I've worked with many RIT grads and none have held a candle to experienced employees. Practical experience can't be beat. I agree that education is certainly important, but experience gives you the ability to make decisions under pressure. I think Obama is wise enough to make the best choices in his appointments, which is key.

Capitalism, yes Ken...that is the USA, and like it or not, money will always influence politics. It doesn't mean things can't improve, but it will take more than a President-saviour.

It will be a perfect world when everyone agrees with you.

 

[razoredge]

I'm not sure experience is any issue in this case. For starters Obama has been in politics for years, thereby making him a politician. Also law school by nature makes you very much up on "the game". So by this I am also indicating that I dont think he will be any improvement. I see the aMErican game of political bullshit as a rock wall and expect nothing more than alot of waffleing back and forth to figure out what to do next and little being accomplished or even tried. Its typically one step forward, two steps back in the WRONG direction. If this was not the case we would not have been on a steady decline as an ENTIRE nation for the past 3 decades, those riding the Tech/information storm fail to realize it was our only TEMPORARY saviour. We are a divided country of people only backing that which is best for them personally, {or that of poor deprived people from OTHER countries, but not their own working poor} thereby making them good aMEricans. We have those that are afforded better wages working in this country because so many of the jobs below them were outsourced, so they stand by the institution of capitalism and "free market" competition... until their jobs or incomes are threatened... then they too begin to squawk like chickens. Then we have those whose incomes are based on taking a percentage of everyones paycheck through things like the uncontroled multitude of mandated rapidly inflated insurances. Then we have those that earn their money "investing" which is bullshit, they dont invest, they "trade" as if running from a fire. Everytime they run, somewhere in this country many people are getting dry fucked. Then we have those that just want a decent job and a reasonable affordable cost of living. No where in this are we still tied together as a nation looking out for its entire, long term best interests. Its just one great big money grab, screw all else. Back to the beginning where politics fits in, its all about the money and big money talks so politicians play the game and serve the top ten percent of the country... yet everyone gets "a vote" and thinks change is in the air.... "a majority has spoken" YARITE!

Much has been said about the failure of the American automotive industry as has all kinds of ideas as to what needs to be done now to make transportation affordable. What types of autos to make, as if the already stressed working poor drive/afford new autos that offer the expensive new hybrid technology. Then at the same time no one is doing the math of the added initial expence of such, nor regarding the expensive maintenence or longevity of such vehicals versus simply buying a cheap used car and paying the expensive gas prices. Then so many fail to recogonize that the penny pinching by the bean counters, trying to please "investors" so they dont run {trade} is what made our automobile industry inferior and years behind, that the abilities were there, the MONEY was not. This applies to every industry that was ever in this country, cheaper products for the quickest short term profits for "investors" and BIG wages for executives sitting on the boards with given investors. Now today it bites an entire nation in the ass because we need decent paying jobs for EVERYONE, yet that doesnt matter because in the name of "free trade" a comparitively small handful of traders made some serious money.... and millions of Americans lost their jobs, careers, futures. BRAVO!

Wars and warmongering ? I wouldnt want to be the first to say that the people of the middle east are warmongers at their best... so I wont. So many seem uneducated in what sent us back into Iraq, I dont know it in its entirety but I know enough about Sadam not cooperating as well as his many previous actions to know his governement was of great concern that required action. Hey, I think Georgie Poo is an asshole but at the same time Im not going to let that cloud my brains to realize that the people in Iraq that are not cooperating with the establishment of a stable government are the only problem at this time and for the past few years. Us pulling out is not going to stop any violence in Iraq, in fact I believe it will result in total chaos for those wanting a better way of life for their country and fellow countymen. I favor this taking place as Im sick and tired of listening to all the stupid squawking by those that say "there was no reason" and "we are the problem". Further self reduction of the population of the area is an added bonus, then in the end we can have more madmen back in power in Iraq and 10, 15, 20 years from now we can sit and wonder what to do about them and their psychotic agressive problems again.

 

[schenkadere]

Wow, razor...as usual...you said a mouthful! LOL

I'm happy Obama was elected, and I'm hoping for the best and for positive changes in the political mindset.

I'm wishing the best for him and for our country, but I feel people are building him up too high and expecting too much. I'm just trying to be realistic. He's up against the same obstacles as any other President, as well as stepping into the snake pit of a sinking world economy and a country at war.

Again, I wish Obama and this country all the best and great success, and I'm looking forward to seeing at least baby steps of positive change these next four years.

 

[razoredge]

And that is all we can hope for

so does Obama or ANYONE for that matter have any idea how to make positive changes in the political mindset ?

Or how to get EVERYONE in this country back on even keel with the standard of living in this country... not that of "developing countries", not that of which our wealthy can so easily afford, or will we still be waiting it out for the century it takes for the people of the developing countries to achieve a standard of living near ours ?

 

[ABQShredHead]

so does Obama or ANYONE for that matter have any idea how to make positive changes in the political mindset ?

Change the media. Move away from doom & gloom and sensationalism to positive reporting.

Or how to get EVERYONE in this country back on even keel with the standard of living in this country... not that of "developing countries", not that of which our wealthy can so easily afford, or will we still be waiting it out for the century it takes for the people of the developing countries to achieve a standard of living near ours ?

Ditch credit cards. Go back to cash like our grandparents and those preceding them did.

 

[Iced Dog]

^ I agree on both counts. Granted there's a ton of negative things that have to be reported on, but then news shows/channels are still in the entertainment business which explains the oversensationalism. And yes, how about using credit as an emergency/backup...only spending money that you actually have in the bank, what a novel concept

 

[razoredge]

Change the media. Move away from doom & gloom and sensationalism to positive reporting.

Ditch credit cards. Go back to cash like our grandparents and those preceding them did.

While I agree that these are problems I fail to see how they are going to balance the scales or confront any of the problems I have spoken of. Unless one is of the mindset that if you dont hear about it, it doesnt exist. Perhaps a large part of what got us here. Then one would also have to ignore the fact that extended credit is what kept the "economy" going and looking bright for the past 10-15 years. Spending money that was not yet earned. A type of advancement so to speak, we'll call it an advanced economy, were retailers and interest earning people got their hands on the money being earned 5-10 years into the future, in the case of mortages 30-40 years, in the midst of the new unstable job market where few know where they will even be working in 5-10 years. In many cases our government was behind this and in the rest they just sat and watched it happen, figuring out new ways to make the future appear bright, we can call that a aMErican economic version of Sadams bluff that Iraq had WMD's. See I'd rather look at the causes than the results.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I don't really have anything to add here anymore. The goal I sought has been achieved, now it's up to the government to deliver or fail.

 

[Iced Dog]

"The End"?

 

[ABQShredHead]

No, not the end - there are still two months left in 2008.

 

[schenkadere]

It is what it is...just hope for the best. As Stan Lee says...Nuff said.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

Closing thread, thanks again for everyone being mostly civil throughout.
As I said, I figured this thread would last about a week. Glad I was wrong....
Nuff Said, indeed....