OT: Debate Thread

[ABQShredHead]

We know - we're kidding back.

 

[Bryant]

Marriage is a legal union of a husband and wife. There is no means to make this concept obsolete. It is a legal union above and beyond a "sharing" of one's life with another.

A couple may choose to live together out of wedlock, but, in my mind, they are doing nothing more than living together. There is no binding of assets, no sharing of any legal rights, etc. If either party wants to call it quits in the relationship, they can merely move out and take what they want with them. There is no binding tie to the relationship. Divorces (a concept I don't believe in) are messy for a reason - an untying of the couple is required, whether by law or by agreement.

Perhaps what gives ideas of obsolescence for marriage is the high-profile treatment of Hollywood couples by the media. Who really cares that Kate Hudson split from her husband? I would care more to see a report that Kate and Chris are in marriage counselling to save their marriage, and they've put their careers on hold until they have found each other again. Brad Pitt can't keep his schlong in his pants long enough to stay married to arguably the most beautiful woman in Hollywood and it's front-page news. What about Joe Shmo and his wife that are fighthing tooth and nail in Podunktown, USA, to preserve the ideals of the institution to which they subscribed via oaths and legalities? Those are the stories I find much more interesting, albeit less sensational.

Prenuptial agreements are another mockery. Why would two individuals want to get married when they've already agreed the union is not going to last?

Stand firm to your commitments and hold yourself (and your partner) to your (their) word.

That is a great post. I am a fairly modern person and am not stuck too much on traditions etc. I absolutely take the tradition of marriage seriously though. I have been married now for over six years to my wonderful wife. A marriage isn't a piece of paper, nor is it a ceremony. It is a commitment, a bond and a responsibility. it is also a maturing process and a lifelong act of persuing of selflessness (at least to a great degree as we all have our moments.)
Having said all of that, the most important thing about marriage is the family structure. I love me !! I love me so much I can't stand it. However, despite medical advances, I am here for only a finite time. What is the best way for me to "live" beyond my mortal years ? The best way is through my children. In a "family structure" with Mommy and Daddy raising the child, the child will not only have half of my genes, but will be raised by me as well. My genetic triats as well as some of my values and opinions will be instilled in my children as well. Lookout world !!


Bryant

 

[ABQShredHead]

Hey, thanks. I like your addenda. You succinctly summed up what the Covey phrase "Live, Love, Learn, & Leave a Legacy" is all about. (though I like to throw "Laugh" in there as well...)

I'm also in it for six so far. 7/1/2000! We've had some very tough times, including present day, but I wouldn't trade them for all the gold in El Salvador. I've learned tremendously valuable lessons about not only living with somebody but also about myself - things I never gave a thought to before marriage.

I'm reading a great book now called For Men Only by the Feldhahns. Just two chapters in and I understand so much more about my wife (like the uncontrollable "do you love me" questions and why our marriage is shaky in her mind but rock solid in mine). My wife has the companion For Women Only - I hope it's as enlightening for her as mine is for me. Judging from the text message she sent me this morning, I think it's doing great.

 

[Rose Immortal]

So...what WAS the book's theory about why the marriage would be shaky in her mind? I'm curious to see if it rings true from a feminine (albeit single) perspective.

 

[Yngvai X]

Heres a little bit of a change of subject, but something that might prove to be another interesting topic:

Do you believe life is a series of coincidences, or do you believe in fate? I'm somewhat torn actually, most of the time I do believe that nothing is planned at all, however there are moments or people in my life that just seem too eerily connected for it all to be coincidence. Or meeting someone that you feel there was no avoiding meeting them or being connected to them, even if you had not met them when you did.

Anyway, discuss.

 

[SilentRealm]

I dunno, I'm torn there too.. I don't believe in a humanoid being that is 'god', yet, my life has followed specific paths and events have occurred that make me wonder if maybe something isnt out there guiding it. Whenever I've really been in trouble and NEEDED an event to occur to help me out of it.. it has.. every single time... I find everything I 'need' comes to me - as opposed to everything I 'want' which doesn't. Sometimes I will want something so badly that I think I need it, and it wont come.. but then later I will realise it was for the better that it didn't, and something else that is better will come instead. I can't explain it. I just call it 'the universe'..

 

[Beelzebub]

If something good happens to me, it's because I worked hard and I earned it. I don't really believe in fate.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I dunno, I'm torn there too.. I don't believe in a humanoid being that is 'god', yet, my life has followed specific paths and events have occurred that make me wonder if maybe something isnt out there guiding it. Whenever I've really been in trouble and NEEDED an event to occur to help me out of it.. it has.. every single time... I find everything I 'need' comes to me - as opposed to everything I 'want' which doesn't. Sometimes I will want something so badly that I think I need it, and it wont come.. but then later I will realise it was for the better that it didn't, and something else that is better will come instead. I can't explain it. I just call it 'the universe'..

I like that description. Poignant even.

 

[theVikingR]

I know what you mean: sometimes things happen in my life that should be coincidence but seem more like design, so I start to think maybe there is such a thing as fate. But then I think about war torn or famine-stricken countries and all the kids whose "fate" it is to get blown up or starve to death before they've even lived. If that's part of a grand design, then the designer has a dark sense of humour.

 

[ABQShredHead]

So...what WAS the book's theory about why the marriage would be shaky in her mind? I'm curious to see if it rings true from a feminine (albeit single) perspective.

The two books are based on findings from study groups.

For men and our linear thinking, we keep everything compartmentalized and "focused". When we deal with something, we deal with it and move on.

For women, on the other hand, emotions are very controlling, and there is an underlying "need" to "feel" loved - this need causes an underlying insecurity about the husband's love that can be triggered by mundane events.

Chapter 3 has been the most enlightening so far - a woman's thoughts at any given time are compared to working at a computer with several Word and Excel docs open and running in the background. Consider how quickly one can move back and forth between documents, working on each at the same time. And the e-mail is open as well as several web browsers and an Internet radio station. Then imagine some of the open files are weeks old running in the background, and then your computer is infected with malware that keeps opening up unrelated pop-ups.

So, getting back to the shakiness part, women require closure for emotions to be put to rest. Simply being married does not bring "emotional closure" for the woman, and her emotions run rampant throughout the marriage causing insecurity. Certain triggers can amplify her insecurity. Something as simple as the husband being silent because he's tired from work can make the wife think, "If he's quiet, it must be about me".

Mostly, women require constant reassurance from their mate to overcome their emotional "malware". I can't say I've done a great job presenting it here and I highly recommend the books. My wife has reported her book has opened her eyes as well.

Check out the wife's website - www.4-womenonly.com.

 

[Horus]

Heres a little bit of a change of subject, but something that might prove to be another interesting topic:

Do you believe life is a series of coincidences, or do you believe in fate? I'm somewhat torn actually, most of the time I do believe that nothing is planned at all, however there are moments or people in my life that just seem too eerily connected for it all to be coincidence. Or meeting someone that you feel there was no avoiding meeting them or being connected to them, even if you had not met them when you did.

Anyway, discuss.

I believe that the concept of Fate applies to some stuff, but not everything. The way I see it, Fate only applies to stuff that actually matters in peoples' lives. Now, I don't believe that it applies to everything taht matters in peoples' lives. Only selective stuff. And everything that is indeed affected by Fate is connected within itself.
My ideas of this subject are really wordy. I'll get back to you as soon as I finish with it.

 

[SilentRealm]

The two books are based on findings from study groups.

For men and our linear thinking, we keep everything compartmentalized and "focused". When we deal with something, we deal with it and move on.

For women, on the other hand, emotions are very controlling, and there is an underlying "need" to "feel" loved - this need causes an underlying insecurity about the husband's love that can be triggered by mundane events.

Chapter 3 has been the most enlightening so far - a woman's thoughts at any given time are compared to working at a computer with several Word and Excel docs open and running in the background. Consider how quickly one can move back and forth between documents, working on each at the same time. And the e-mail is open as well as several web browsers and an Internet radio station. Then imagine some of the open files are weeks old running in the background, and then your computer is infected with malware that keeps opening up unrelated pop-ups.

So, getting back to the shakiness part, women require closure for emotions to be put to rest. Simply being married does not bring "emotional closure" for the woman, and her emotions run rampant throughout the marriage causing insecurity. Certain triggers can amplify her insecurity. Something as simple as the husband being silent because he's tired from work can make the wife think, "If he's quiet, it must be about me".

Mostly, women require constant reassurance from their mate to overcome their emotional "malware". I can't say I've done a great job presenting it here and I highly recommend the books. My wife has reported her book has opened her eyes as well.

I like the analogy of comparing a womans mind to running several computer programs at once.. I'd have to agree with that, but think of it as doing all of that.. but ALL day long, never resting, not even for a moment (even when asleep) - thats my mind anyway, it always has to be doing several things at once.

and what you mentioned about women's emotions.. I hate that aspect of us but I must concede it is also true.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I like the analogy of comparing a womans mind to running several computer programs at once.. I'd have to agree with that, but think of it as doing all of that.. but ALL day long, never resting, not even for a moment (even when asleep) - thats my mind anyway, it always has to be doing several things at once.

and what you mentioned about women's emotions.. I hate that aspect of us but I must concede it is also true.

Yes, the computer's running constantly, and no windows/programs ever shut down.

There's another good computer analogy with men. When a woman asks, "what are you thinking?" and a man replies, "nothing", the woman usually gets irritated and will press the man to tell her exactly what he's thinking. I quote - "She doesn't understand that [he's] thinking...nothing! [His] desktop [is] empty, a screen saver [is] up, and no one [is] home."

Then it follows, "Do you relate? Women don't. As one woman put it: 'There's never a time that there's nothing going on in my head. If I answer 'nothing', it's because I'm mad at him!'"

That's funny stuff. It's amazing that men and women are wired so disparately.

I read Chapter 4 on the plane yesterday. It's titled, "Your Real Job Is Closer To Home", and it really did hit home with me. Men are programmed to think they must be the absolute provider for the family, and the husband falls into a trap thinking he must give them the best money can buy. In order to do that, he must work his ass off to make riches, staying away from the family to work long hours at work. Truthfully, women would rather the man find a job that balances work with family time, even answering 70% to 30% that they would rather put up with financial difficulties than have their man slaved to a job that takes all his time and in which he is unhappy.

My being gone a lot is a big stressor for my wife. I need to find ways to a) make it up to her, b) focus more on my together time, and c) stay home more.

In the women's book, Shaunti goes into this same scenario, but from the opposing perspective, letting women in on mens' psyches and why we're always at work. No, it's not because we want to get away from our wives; it's because we want to give them anything and everything we can, financially.

 

[Horus]

I like Matt's discussion better, but taht's probably because I don't have any comments on the previous debate about marriage, and any that I did have were strictly limited to a spectator's point of view, and I really don't know shit about getting married.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Yes, the computer's running constantly, and no windows/programs ever shut down.

And that's actually how my real computer runs during the day. Tons of windows up.

I read Chapter 4 on the plane yesterday. It's titled, "Your Real Job Is Closer To Home", and it really did hit home with me. Men are programmed to think they must be the absolute provider for the family, and the husband falls into a trap thinking he must give them the best money can buy. In order to do that, he must work his ass off to make riches, staying away from the family to work long hours at work. Truthfully, women would rather the man find a job that balances work with family time, even answering 70% to 30% that they would rather put up with financial difficulties than have their man slaved to a job that takes all his time and in which he is unhappy.

My being gone a lot is a big stressor for my wife. I need to find ways to a) make it up to her, b) focus more on my together time, and c) stay home more.

In the women's book, Shaunti goes into this same scenario, but from the opposing perspective, letting women in on mens' psyches and why we're always at work. No, it's not because we want to get away from our wives; it's because we want to give them anything and everything we can, financially.

I don't know if the book discusses this, but one problem with men thinking they need to be THE Breadwinner is that they often kill their wives' careers in the process.

Companies do not expect men to stand up and demand time off for family and until they do it en masse, it's just as much career suicide as it is to women. Yes, folks, it IS still career suicide for women to take on family responsibilities--there's even a term for it: "mommy-tracking". That's what happens when a company sniffs out the fact that a woman cares about her family, and decides that she's going to be ineligible for promotion or any other form of career development. In sports terms, she's on the "disabled list".

Since men often refuse to share their part of the family burden (all the way from household chores to caring for a sick child), they create a situation where the woman is working double time or more, and is forced to cut back because the only place where she can GET a break is reduced work; it's not like her husband is going to give an inch. So in the process of trying to be THE Breadwinner, he selfishly torpedos his wife's career by causing her to either get mommy-tracked or having to quit and either go to part-time or not to work at all until the kids are out of the house.

I'm not saying ALL men are like this--but there are still enough out there who do this kind of thing that it merits addressing.

 

[Jax]

I like the analogy of comparing a womans mind to running several computer programs at once.. I'd have to agree with that, but think of it as doing all of that.. but ALL day long, never resting, not even for a moment (even when asleep) - thats my mind anyway, it always has to be doing several things at once.

And then try being a woman with ADHD..talk about never resting..

 

[Horus]

Whenever I'm on the computer, I always have Firefox, iTunes, Aim, MSN messenger, Guitar Pro, MS Paint, MS Works, occasionally Tabit, and other miscelaneous programs all running at the same time. So does that make my computer a woman?

 

[SilentRealm]

^ yep

 

[ABQShredHead]

I don't know if the book discusses this, but one problem with men thinking they need to be THE Breadwinner is that they often kill their wives' careers in the process.

Companies do not expect men to stand up and demand time off for family and until they do it en masse, it's just as much career suicide as it is to women. Yes, folks, it IS still career suicide for women to take on family responsibilities--there's even a term for it: "mommy-tracking". That's what happens when a company sniffs out the fact that a woman cares about her family, and decides that she's going to be ineligible for promotion or any other form of career development. In sports terms, she's on the "disabled list".

Since men often refuse to share their part of the family burden (all the way from household chores to caring for a sick child), they create a situation where the woman is working double time or more, and is forced to cut back because the only place where she can GET a break is reduced work; it's not like her husband is going to give an inch. So in the process of trying to be THE Breadwinner, he selfishly torpedos his wife's career by causing her to either get mommy-tracked or having to quit and either go to part-time or not to work at all until the kids are out of the house.

I'm not saying ALL men are like this--but there are still enough out there who do this kind of thing that it merits addressing.

No offense, but this view is somewhat antiquated. Definitely, 10 years ago, this view was very valid. Today, men take FMLA quite regularly. I took three weeks off after my son was born. My wife works from home, so I may not be the best example for this argument; however, she has a long day with the now eight-week old, and our four-year-old spends mornings at pre-school. I drive her to my parents' house so grandpa can take her to her school. When I get home from work, I typically make dinner and ensure everybody, including my tired nursing wife, is fed. Then my daughter gets her bath, teeth brushed, a story reading, and a round of sing song in the rocking chair. After I put her down to bed, I prepare my son's bath, bathe him, outfit him in his pajamas, and hand him over to my wife so he can nurse, and she puts him down for bed. During this time, I clean the cats' litter box and then feed the cats. We have about an hour for chit-chat before we go to bed around 11:00. I am awake every two hours to change my son's diapers and help my wife prepare for nursing. Then I'm up at 6:00 to shower and eat breakfast before waking my daughter up at 6:45 to get her dressed, fed, and primped for pre-school. We leave the house at 7:20-7:30 each morning.

Pretty busy schedule. If my wife worked outside the house, I'm sure we'd manage.

I saw a report the other day that showed many women are exiting the workplace to spend more time at home. I think that's brilliant! Not because I'm sexist and not because I feel the woman's place is in the home; quite the contrary, I think women bring much to the table at the workplace. As noted in the above examples, women and men have extremely different viewpoints, and this diversity typically sets the table for an enlightened, functional workplace. My overall point is that America's culture is collapsing because traditional home values have been forefeited at the expense of double-income parenting. Bring back our old-fashioned family values and this country may again be great. Nowadays, parents are much to self-promoting and self-serving, all too often pawning off their parenting to public schools, nannies, and day care centers while the real parents are fulfilling their own desires, wishes, and self needs. Parenting, like marriage, has been corrupted by the needs of self-fulfillment and entitlement all too present in modern American society.

I've known many men who have left the workplace to be the full-time parent as well. If you feel discrimination in the workplace is high for women who are parents, you should see the down-gazing at men who play the role of Mr. Mom in social cirlces.

[/rant]

 

[Horus]

^ yep

Awesome!