Bear in mind that it's not just you and the baby; you're with your whole family. You mean to say that you would rather you, your parents, your siblings, your other children, your spouse, etc. all die just because your baby starts crying? If it was just me and a baby I would be willing to die for my child, but in the initial case, I might end up holding it so tight I'd break his neck or something. What if the baby isn't baptized? It has original sin, so it's not as if it's an innocent baby.Rose Immortal said:
OT: Debate Thread
- Thread starter Beelzebub
- Start date
Rose Immortal
Spirit of Hope
- Jun 19, 2004
- 1,425
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theVikingR said:
That is a clear violation of the parent's duty of care; I would not call that a "gray area" at all because the parent's duty of care trumps the child's duty of obedience.
Then let me start with another concept: is there good and evil in this universe? You say that you think certain things are bad. Why?
And Beez--frankly, I know my family well enough to know that the decision would be unanimous amongst us: it would be better to risk our death than to knowingly kill.
We cannot know the future, and while we can deal in probabilities all day, basing a decision on unknown consequences isn't sufficient. I say "unknown" because even if the odds are very steep of death, we can't ever be sure. If I am actually in the moment in your scenario, it may be very likely we'd die--but then again, something could happen all the way from some more pressing distraction to someone deciding to show mercy in some form. Even in retrospect we only know how things would've played out with the course of action actually chosen; all else becomes probability again. This is why principles, a moral code, or whatever you choose to call it become necessary.
I'm not sure if you realize, but the issue of baptism as you describe is more relevant to Catholicism; the ritual is not seen quite the same way in Protestantism. It is believed in my church that if one is not capable of the kind of higher-order thinking needed to make moral decisions, then they will not be held responsible in the way an adult is.
P.S. to coolsnow7: I don't know why, but I'm running into technical problems every time I try to post a response to you. I've sent a PM to tech support asking about it, and if I find I can't make a public post, I'll PM you. I promise I'm not ignoring you!
theVikingR
inexplicable
- Jun 9, 2006
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Rose Immortal said:
No I don't believe in good and evil because that suggests human deeds can be measured absolutely, which I think frankly is ludicrous given the immensity and randomness of the universe combined with the chemical and emotional complexity of the human brain.theVikingR said:
Good and bad are what we make them - this is demonstrated by the diversity of legal systems around the world according to different cultures. If there's an absolute right and wrong, then everyone would know it, and that they don't shows to me that either God's an ass for only telling some people what they can and can't do, or he doesn't exist in the sense that certain religions believe he does.
You believe things are bad because God says they're bad. My issue with this is that:
1. I don't believe in God, so I have no reason to put any stock in morals based on what he's attributed as having said.
2. The stuff that is explicitly labeled as bad in the Bible applied to society 2000+ years ago. It doesn't necessarily apply now, or there may be new things they didn't think about then. That's what I meant by the grey area point.
If you then argue that following Jesus' example is acceptable, then you're having to interpret what is good and evil according to your own judgement anyway because Jesus didn't really talk too much about filesharing and drive bys. Ok, those are pretty clear cut anyway, but Jesus didn't talk about moral dilemmas like stealing to feed your family, and he didn't talk about justifying war.
On a final note, I'll say this is ultimately pointless since our beliefs are entirely incompatible because the tenets we hold true at the most fundamental level are different. I can't believe in sin because it can't exist in my view of the world without moral absolutes, while your belief in God as the ultimate judge allows it to exist in yours.
The original objection by dargormudshark was that he didn't like being called a sinner because it was something that you believed according to a system of right and wrong that he didn't believe in. Obviously he wasn't suggesting you change your beliefs, but was calling for more sensitivity when stating a fact which is rather a tenet of your beliefs.
SilentRealm
Member
Beelzebub said:
as a mother.. and not a religious person.. all babies are innocent, and theres no way to explain the bond and love you develop for a person youve carried in your stomach for nine months, given birth to, then proceeded to care for their every need. i couldnt do something like that.. I'm with RI in that I'd risk my own death, and perhaps all of our deaths than to kill my baby because what happens if you did that and survived? how do you live with yourself knowing what youve done? I couldnt..
Taliwakker
.....
Not Rosemary's
Ditto...except for the carrying in the stomach for 9 months part.....i did have to make a lot of banana milkshakes and 2am runs to the servo for hotdogs though
SilentRealm said:
*Uterus, Ms. science buff
Pointless nitpicking aside, I'm not a parent so I don't have insider information on what it would be like to be pregnant and give birth and raise a child. If I do have kids, will my opinion change? Maybe, it's too early to tell. As to answer the question how I'd live with myself... of course I'd feel horrible, but the rest of my family I saved by killing my child would help me through the mourning process. That wasn't intended as an easy way out type of answer; my family is very supportive and they would do such a thing in the given situation. I wonder if the guys who post here have a different answer?
Taliwakker
.....
No, I want a real man's opinion on this. Where's Kenneth? Kidding
Our posts were three minutes apart, I didn't see it while I was typing. Sorry
Our posts were three minutes apart, I didn't see it while I was typing. Sorry
Taliwakker
.....
Kenneth probably wouldn't want to bring a child into a world filled with western media and culture
Seriously...i would do anything for the safety of my son.
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
I couldn't snuff out a kid, unless he was well armed and posing a signifigant danger to me. My (theoretical)kid, I'd die trying to protect.
I'm surprised nobody suggested the Vulcan neck pinch to silence the child!
J-Dubya
I'm surprised nobody suggested the Vulcan neck pinch to silence the child!
J-Dubya
The question posed isn't about protecting the safety of your child. I think anyone would do anything to keep their kids from being harmed. The question was about protecting your loved ones by sacrificing someone else you loved.
Taliwakker
.....
Well my son is no 1 priority...if other family members have to die for him to live then they just have to die.
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
Rose Immortal
Spirit of Hope
- Jun 19, 2004
- 1,425
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Rose Immortal
Spirit of Hope
- Jun 19, 2004
- 1,425
- 10
- 38
The problem with forcing people to obey--and I am venturing out on a limb here--may well be that the greatest possible evil, even beyond that which we humans can commit, would be to create beings with independent minds and then completely deprive them of free will. That's destruction of the soul even beyond the physical and psychological destruction we can inflict. I think that's why we're instead left in a situation where we have to try and test ideas to understand if they are right or not. The God I believe in is not one who opposes our using our brains. As to the diversity of legal systems in the world, as far as I'm concerned, all of them have missing pieces including the American system--it's just that the missing pieces fall in different places from culture to culture. The British legal system might miss one set of things while the American system might be missing a different set. That we miss different pieces does not somehow rule out the idea that there IS only one right answer. Maybe one of us misses on filesharing and maybe another of us misses on the bread-stealing scenario. But there is still a right answer that we will find out in the end.
I fully expect correction with regard to my mistakes at the end of my life, and am actually very interested and curious to find out what the case is, just as I am with a school subject. I personally know I must be missing some pieces as far as my own understandings--but this doesn't mean I should sit on my hands and say it's a lost cause. In this life it's the striving that does one good, even though we all fall short of the goal.
What I took issue to with dargormudshark's comments--and still do--is the assumption he seems to make that I hate him and his family. And on a personal level! The funny thing about Christian belief, if I really watch myself and think of how I must act, is that if anything, to know that I am flawed and that I have sinned means that I cannot lift myself above him or his family. I am not a better person than him. He has his strengths and weaknesses and so do I. I call him nothing that I would not call myself first. To think that I sought to degrade him, or to call him worthless trash, or anything of that nature is an untruth. His life is worth as much as mine, and to suggest that I meant anything otherwise is incorrect.
I fully expect correction with regard to my mistakes at the end of my life, and am actually very interested and curious to find out what the case is, just as I am with a school subject. I personally know I must be missing some pieces as far as my own understandings--but this doesn't mean I should sit on my hands and say it's a lost cause. In this life it's the striving that does one good, even though we all fall short of the goal.
What I took issue to with dargormudshark's comments--and still do--is the assumption he seems to make that I hate him and his family. And on a personal level! The funny thing about Christian belief, if I really watch myself and think of how I must act, is that if anything, to know that I am flawed and that I have sinned means that I cannot lift myself above him or his family. I am not a better person than him. He has his strengths and weaknesses and so do I. I call him nothing that I would not call myself first. To think that I sought to degrade him, or to call him worthless trash, or anything of that nature is an untruth. His life is worth as much as mine, and to suggest that I meant anything otherwise is incorrect.
theVikingR said:
ABQShredHead
©1970
I think, as a parent, your absolute protection instincts kick in. Rather than snuff your baby, you would confront those trying to kill you. I've seen it in real life - the instinct becomes fight rather than flight when you have protection of your children as a primary concern.
And, as a man, I likewise say the protection of my son and daughter (and wife, for that matter) are above all else in the world. I would stop the earth from spinning if it meant protecting my family. And I would do anything to ensure their survival, regardless of what sins may be committed.
And, as a man, I likewise say the protection of my son and daughter (and wife, for that matter) are above all else in the world. I would stop the earth from spinning if it meant protecting my family. And I would do anything to ensure their survival, regardless of what sins may be committed.
SilentRealm
Member
Beelzebub said:
really? I thought it was in the ACTUAL stomach, you know bubbling around in there with the food..silly me
- mental note *dont dumb anything down for general audience or beelz will tear you to shreds*
ABQShredHead
©1970
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