A recent facination with hard drugs

And honestly, I'm all for people taking responsibility for their actions and for legislation to SOME things being stupid and counterproductive (not to mention a huge waste of time) - but the fact is Jeff, not everyone in the world (and especially in this country) is as smart, mature, and educated as us and thus IMO can't be trusted to make smart decisions about drugs, especially the hard drugs with strongly addictive properties, because the risk is too great IMO - as pointed out by...someone earlier in this thread (so many posts, too lazy to see who, probably Erkan :D), hard drug users definitely do NOT operate in a vacuum, very often their voracious need for the fix drives them to rob and steal, not to mention brutally take advantage of the kindness of their family and friends (see Tad's autobiography from his crackhead days :lol: ). So yeah, those still most definitely need to be banned IMO! (again, not sure if you're advocating total legalization of everything Jeff, though that seems to be a valid extrapolation from skimming your posts)
 
The MEDSTAT estimates that about 24% of this estimate (the particular estimate I quoted is already 13 years old) are related to criminal activities, including the cost of incarceration, policing, legal adjudication, and the cost to crime victims. So the other 76%, or roughly $16.5 billion is related to health care costs, lost productivity, rehabilitation, etc. etc. This is just heroin. Doesn't include coke, meth, crack, or any other drugs. Just heroin. This ignores the human cost of extreme poverty.

I think in an ideal world completely legalizing all drugs would work just fine. I think that this just assumes a level of responsibility that Americans, and people all over the world have shown they cannot handle.

Yeah, because 'incarcerating, policing, and legally adjudicating' a legal drug will be so fucking high... pretending that the drugs are worse than the 'war' we're fighting on them in economic terms is simply nonsense. If you're concerned about their 'crime rates', see how many robberies they have to commit when heroin is available for a fraction of the current cost due to legalization dropping the price by orders of magnitude; if you're concerned about their health care costs, don't cover them.

Your earlier wall of text showed a pretty severe misreading of what I was saying - the examples I gave were counterexamples to a false generalization, not reasons that drug use is good. No argument yet has shown drug use to be conclusively and absolutely bad, so there's not quite as much of a burden on me as you seem to think. The same wall of text mistakes consequences of the *war on drugs* with the consequences of the drugs themselves - until you can start finding me people who get into gang wars over cigarettes or JD, you're out of luck. (Also, Hitler was known to take cocaine eyedrops; I haven't heard much about meth.)

Metaltastic, you, too, are mistaking consequences of the war on drugs with consequences of the drugs (especially crimes as a consequence of addiction, which most certainly doesn't happen with nicotine); you're also assuming that we are responsible from protecting people from themselves. If someone acts in a way that harms them, let them handle the fucking consequences! We're not here to be ordered around like a bunch of fucking children, and while people still have the impression that we aren't going to have to take responsibility for ourselves we'll have *much* bigger problems than drugs.

Jeff
 
Well dude, first of all I wasn't talking about nicotine, rather heroin, crack, etc., and second, the main point of my post that you seem to have totally sidestepped is the consequences don't exclusively affect them, because so many crimes are committed by people under the influence either looking for another fix or just some crazed crackhead microwaving her baby or running over a kid or something ridiculous - so to reiterate from my post, it's not worth the risk to let people choose for themselves, because often they'll make the wrong choice and certainly won't be the only ones to suffer!
 
I didn't miss that point - I explained it as a consequence of the war on drugs, which artificially inflates the price of drugs by orders of magnitude and leads to distribution problems. Tobacco has a much smaller price inflation due to taxation and is easily distributed to the majority of its users - and is widely believed to be as addictive as anything you mentioned... but doesn't lead to people microwaving babies.

Jeff
 
Yeah, I wasn't only talking about crimes committed by people looking for a fix, which I agree *might* not be an issue if the drugs were legalized and the prices lower (but still, when you need a fix and have no money, it doesn't matter if a hit is $10 or $100!), but also crimes committed by people who are under the influence, which are still an issue as well (especially from things like PCP)
 
Well dude, first of all I wasn't talking about nicotine, rather heroin, crack, etc., and second, the main point of my post that you seem to have totally sidestepped is the consequences don't exclusively affect them, because so many crimes are committed by people under the influence either looking for another fix or just some crazed crackhead microwaving her baby or running over a kid or something ridiculous - so to reiterate from my post, it's not worth the risk to let people choose for themselves, because often they'll make the wrong choice and certainly won't be the only ones to suffer!

He addressed that in the the consequences that might effect other people are due to legislation rather than drug use themselves. When you drive something underground you drive the price up, it costs for people to get their fix, thefts go up to feed the habit, so therefore we can conclude that keeping drugs illegal only propagates the consequences you speak of.

If you have a shot of heroin the same price as a pack of cigarettes, there isnt going to be junkies running about the place breaking into peoples houses because it isnt worth doing when the price is low. If tobacco was illegal then you'd have several million nicotine-heads running round trying to get their next fix, this is a legislative problem not a consequence of the drugs themselves.

Also if you were to go with say state moderated handouts you can keep an eye on anyone who is taking the drugs, which helps keep anyone who is mentally unstable under some sort of surveillance as opposed to hiding from the law like they are now.

Edit: How many people do you think are getting their houses robbed for a 10 dollar packet of cigarettes? It doesnt happen because for the price it isnt worth the risk, no matter how stupid crackheads are they will maintain that sort of rationality when faced with that high a risk for that low a payoff.
 
You're behind a few posts Owen, time to read and edit ;)

Got yah, I posted that when only the post at the top of the page stood. ;)

Yeah, I wasn't only talking about crimes committed by people looking for a fix, which I agree *might* not be an issue if the drugs were legalized and the prices lower (but still, when you need a fix and have no money, it doesn't matter if a hit is $10 or $100!), but also crimes committed by people who are under the influence, which are still an issue as well (especially from things like PCP)

Well we deal with the consequences of alcohol all the time no questions asked, violence, vandalism, murder, assault, drunken driving. People endanger themselves and others all the time, you want to remove all that you better sit everyone inside a padded box.
 
So what are you suggesting, that because we already have one drug legalized that causes all that shit (alcohol) that we should just open the floodgates and increase access to all the others by legalizing them? Hmm... :loco:
 
So what are you suggesting, that because we already have one drug legalized that causes all that shit (alcohol) that we should just open the floodgates and increase access to all the others by legalizing them? Hmm... :loco:

Well if your gonna ban all the others on the principal that they're bad, then you might as well ban booze as well. But no, because most people enjoy booze, and can control themselves whilst they're on it. You're always going to get stupid people doing stupid things, whether they're inebriated/stoned/high/whatever, that doesn't really make a case for keeping something illegal.

You're also assuming that if we legalised heroin tomorrow then every motherfucker in the west is going to rush out to stick a needle in his arm and place their newborn in the micro. It doesn't work like that.
 
Of course people do stupid things, but I believe (and don't think it's very difficult to prove) that people are more likely to do stupid things when under the influence of drugs - try this on for size ;) And it doesn't matter if legalizing it tomorrow would make everyone start doing it, that's irrelevant to the point, which is that it WOULD make it easier to access so more people would be tempted (a big way to avoid temptation is to have the thing tempting you be more of a hassle to get)
 
Of course people do stupid things, but I believe (and don't think it's very difficult to prove) that people are more likely to do stupid things when under the influence of drugs - try this on for size ;) And it doesn't matter if legalizing it tomorrow would make everyone start doing it, that's irrelevant to the point, which is that it WOULD make it easier to access so more people would be tempted (a big way to avoid temptation is to have the thing tempting you be more of a hassle to get)

Really? Usually when people get told that they shouldnt do something, they are more inspired to do it.

At School they told me various crap about drinking in moderation, how abstinence was the best way to avoid STD's and various crap about how weed and various other drugs were bad for me.

It all ultimately inspired me to want to go out and do all the things they told me not to, its human nature, you tell a five year old not to open a box and then leave the room, walk back in ten seconds later and you will find them with their heads in it mooching around.

Usually the best approach for keeping people away from things is to say here it is, it does this, you can try it or opt out of trying it if you want, its your decision.
 
Well yeah, to be clear, what I meant was when I'm tempted by sweets, for example, it's a lot easier to resist by not keeping any sweets in the house, rather than knowing there's a box of Oreos in the pantry crying to be feasted upon - and the same goes for drugs, when you could either buy them at your local drug store, or go into the hood to meet Jamal to score some heroin and pray you won't get anally rammed :D
 
Well yeah, to be clear, what I meant was when I'm tempted by sweets, for example, it's a lot easier to resist by not keeping any sweets in the house, rather than knowing there's a box of Oreos in the pantry crying to be feasted upon - and the same goes for drugs, when you could either buy them at your local drug store, or go into the hood to meet Jamal to score some heroin and pray you won't get anally rammed :D

Thats not going to inspire people to start taking the drugs though, you only have cravings for the box of Oreos in your pantry because you know how god damn good they taste, if you didnt know what those Oreos tasted like then you wouldn't have any cravings for them. Therefore temptation only extends to people that have already experienced the drug.

The point is, if someone is already addicted physically, then they will get it no matter the consequence, whether its theft to pay jamal in the hood or going to the drug store to pay for their cheaper, cleaner fix. I'd rather have junkies walk down to the chemist than raid my house for their addiction.

As far as new users are concerned its all about willpower, whether something is legal or illegal you will always have somebody offer you a bit of it to try, you trying to say you've never been offered coke, lsd, shrooms?

Of course you have, but you said no, anyone that said yes has already made that choice and delt with the consequences anyway.
 
Because, to repeat this for the second time, I don't trust most Americans (or people in the world in general, but Americans especially :erk: ) to be smart enough to have that kind of willpower and exercise that restraint, and (again) I don't think it's worth the risk!
 
Because, to repeat this for the second time, I don't trust most Americans (or people in the world in general, but Americans especially :erk: ) to be smart enough to have that kind of willpower and exercise that restraint, and (again) I don't think it's worth the risk!

Most people do exercise that choice though, just about everyone at some point in their lives is guaranteed to have been offered hard drugs, they've already issued or not issued that restraint, these choices have already been made, regardless of legality. The risk has already been taken.
 
But you imply that more people wouldn't be offered drugs more often if they were legalized, more widely available, more widely circulated, and cheaper - and that I disagree with :)
 
It's rather interesting how tobacco and alcohol are in the top 10 of dangerous drugs (as found by the British Medical Association recently) yet are widely sociably acceptable:

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Having tried almost everything under the sun myself (and still never turned into a junkie on the street - yay!) there are 6 that I know wouldn't be worth the risk of experimentation. Heroin, Crack, Meth, GHB, Solvents and any prescription drug that is used recreationally. Apart from those six, if you're of sound mind then in my experienced opinion very moderate use is fair game for the odd special occasion. :)

Drugs are amplifiers, if you're fucked up person, then the chances are they'll fuck you up even more.

So kids, just say no now pass the wrap. ;)
 
I think the assumption you're making with legalization of heroin is that if it is legalized, all heroin addicts will get jobs and pay for their addiction in a mature and responsible manner. I've known plenty of heroin addicts in my time - most of them aren't very at holding down jobs in support of their habit.

If we legalize and use the government to regulate heroin, I think its a safe assumption to make that the heroin sold at the local ******** will be of a consistent "blend" lets say. Unfortunately, for most heroin addicts, a tolerance is developed, leading to the physical need for more. Now is a heroin addict going to simply shell out extra money for two 'doses' or will that person try to find another method of getting a stronger "blend"? The government will still have to wage a war on ILLEGAL drugs. Legalizing drugs just simply changes the fact that the drug is only LEGAL if it is bought from the government. We'll still have a war on ILLEGAL drugs. Not much will really change in my opinion, but this can't be backed up since we haven't legalized heroine yet. Legalizing it will simply make it more available to a wider group of people, some of whom, after LEGALLY experimenting will seek out illegal sources. If you don't believe that at least SOME people will resort to this, you are seriously underestimating the physical effects that heroin can have on people.

Unfortunately we don't have any heroin addicts on this board to chime in.

Your earlier wall of text showed a pretty severe misreading of what I was saying - the examples I gave were counterexamples to a false generalization, not reasons that drug use is good. No argument yet has shown drug use to be conclusively and absolutely bad, so there's not quite as much of a burden on me as you seem to think.
Jeff

Drug use cannot be proved to be undoubtedly bad in absolutely every case. I challenge you to find me ANYTHING that is either absolutely black or absolutely white.

The same wall of text mistakes consequences of the *war on drugs* with the consequences of the drugs themselves - until you can start finding me people who get into gang wars over cigarettes or JD, you're out of luck.

I'm going to make an assumption, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you have not had many encounters with people who are addicted to hard drugs such as heroin and cocaine.

EDIT: Upon reading this I realize that it may seem condescending and I just want to make clear that I in no way mean it in a condescending or derogatory manner. I fully respect your opinions and the evidence you cite, so none of this is a personal attack in any way - just a mere difference of opinion. I decided to not edit the actual text because that would seem...I don't know...just weird? Ha. Just wanted to clarify myself on that one.

Disclaimer: I may be a bit biased on this subject, I very recently lost a dear friend to heroin addiction. Seeing the effect this has had on his family and friends has significantly changed my opinion on the matter. I firmly believe that legalization would not have changed a fucking thing and he'd still be dead today if it were legal.

But what it boils down to, at least it seems to me, is a difference in opinion in two areas:

1. That people in general are responsible enough to handle their actions when it comes to substance abuse.

2. That hard drug abusers rarely have an effect on anyone besides themselves.